#51 "These Broken Symbols"



Rigby Cruz and I talk about gender, trans theory, and the recent controversy prompted by Natalie Wynn, also known as ContraPoints.

Photograph by CD.Ault, 2 August 2018.

Welcome to the worst auto-generated transcript ever, sorry, and, uh, you’re welcome ;)

by bap bap bap out pow pow pow hey go check out Nora on patreon you just go to patreon.com/trashparty you and been like gotta water and he had a lemon in his water he was like sucking on it and then Dylan was like I bet you won't eat that whole thing and then Ben just straight-up just eats the whole slice of lemon including like the Rhine and everything and just swallows it and I'm just like who are you yeah welcome to Prairie guys yeah i'm nora the janitor and today we're interested what kind of stuff are we gonna talk about well I'm gonna tell you that's the stuff I'm gonna tell you I know what we're gonna talk about is there's about on podcast that's what you do on a podcast he talked about all kinds of stuff I watched YouTube video and it made me feel awful it made me feel so bad yeah that's right I watched a YouTube video and it made me feel like oh guys come to feeling like trash I'm feeling like trash no I'm on the internet now in the real world I'm in my kitchen walking around town feeling like shine come on the Internet and that's the way the world works so here's what's up let me take a look I know it's not talking what's up man all right so I was watching on the youtubes and then I was feeling bad I didn't want to think about how bad I was feeling so I went on the internet talked about how bad I was feeling and then on the internet on the Instagram I was talking about and then I said should I talk about podcasts and the people on Instagram they said yeah and then Rigby Cruz was like I was like yeah you should yeah you should you should definitely yeah hey Rigby yeah that was a good idea come hang out with me and let's talk about why why why why you're wondering like hey no no why you feel so bad and I'm like here's one so let me go make sure that I'm getting the right words so I'm gonna [Music] - you know I'm gonna read it to you in ten nine eight seven six five four fuck no sorry miss website is taking too long to load all right all right all right so hmm who's Natalie when now do we win aka contra bites she's a youtuber and she is a former philosophy graduate student former as a man went to school learn stuff about philosophy but dropped out didn't didn't get that PhD and she describes herself as an ex philosopher her Twitter hand you tuber ex philosopher sex drugs and social justice anyway she made this YouTube video called the aesthetic she's yet to American culture poisonings mantra videos we talk about that and one of them was called the aesthetic made me feel real bad hey Natalie you made me feel like shit yeah hey Natalie you make me feel real bad you came up with a lot of bad ideas and you put them online I know they're stuck in my brain and I don't know how to get him out of my brain I don't feel like garbage hey girl thanks no thanks alright so [Music] anyway yeah we talked about that and you know fuck talking we talked about that yeah and you know there's a lot more I could say about it so maybe I will in the future and I also asked people for questions like on Instagram and stuff and I got a lot of really good questions from friends and from internet friends and thankful questions but I didn't have time to address them Rigby and I didn't really get to the questions so I'm gonna address questions in a future episode probably the next episode so if you listen to this the Soudan you have questions or if you have criticisms I welcome it I would love to hear from you and your perspective unless you're being mean and an asshole but if you have questions that's great I'm gonna go ahead and say there's no dumb questions if he wants any questions please email me you can find the contact form on prairie god calm and then next time oh the dress would I get some less new questions and be real fun real cool and hey if you don't listen to this episode here's the TLDR Natalie will make a a culture points is brilliant but she's bad and I think she's mean and I don't really recommend her anymore and I'm not really a fan anymore and that's enough about that the dead had to do to death and here is probably the most important Natalie says that well should I find the exact quote I guess I guess I could but basically she says god damn it we get into all this and it sucks but basically she says like hey just say guess I'll look up the exact fucking quote cuz it's so fucking the and also I should say cuz I guess I didn't say this yet but you already knew it right cuz you're reading my mind right this is me and I talk about gender and like being transgender and stuff cuz Natalie wind is transgender but that she that's what this videos kind of about I'm gonna say a general for this episode like content warning for like gender dysphoria and transphobia and shit so in June of 2018 Natalie when tweeted that basically you know answering the question of what is womanhood and what what what makes a woman and and and and she said like in the in response to that she said that the idea that quote a woman is anyone who identifies as a woman is is not a philosophically good answer unquote and then on September 26th of 2018 Natalie when tweeted in response to criticism about her most recent video the aesthetic she tweeted in a in a now-deleted Twitter thread she tweeted in response to that criticism she tweeted quote surely an account that begins and with I'm not a man because I don't identify as one is pretty weak yeah right so basically now you will saying that my general identity my gender identity doesn't really matter and I the fact that I identify as a woman doesn't actually mean anything to her it's not philosophically sound and it's a philosophical argument if you don't listen to this episode what I wanna say is that identifying as something is enough identifying as a man as a woman as a person is enough it's enough it's enough and the second thing I wanna leave you with is this perfect something conclusions are wrong their conclusions are mean lastly I'll leave you with final this wedding you listen to this conversation or not the point I want to make is this I would rather choose the ethical answer the moral answer the humanistic answer the answer that is just and includes everyone and helps I would rather come to that conclusion every single time every single day / [Music] philosophically correct conclusion yeah okay gatekeeping sucks gatekeeping this bullshit alright cool so I just want to say thank you to Rigby for coming on and hanging out with me and talking about all this shit for like three hours they're the best and I love them and I want to plug his Instagram its seatbelt hands with two S's at the end seat belt and this seat belt hand you got it alright let's listen to the show now all right yeah let's listen it up all right [Applause] [Music] I looked at all this stuff you did yeah like the uh what did you would you look at I read the thread and then I watched the video and then I read the the one that didn't work I read that one that use the deleted one yeah yeah yeah yeah I did all that right before work so that's all fun so like I went into work like fucking angry I was like yeah yeah I'm glad I'm glad well I'm glad that you texted me and we're like hey you should I'm glad that you're here yeah cuz I think I don't know I'm I'm very curious to like suss out our perspectives on this cuz it's like like it's it it like affect it affected me way more than I wanted it to like yeah like I've watched the video I watched the video twice two and a half times and the first time I was just like I watched it and I was like like her stuff like i I've I've liked some of her stuff you know so watch watching it the first time and then like being just like getting to end and me like ah dang it yeah like I I just wanted to like okay I'm done like I don't want to like that wasn't fun I don't want to like do that again yeah I don't want to think about that like I would rather just like you know whatever it's fine yeah and like move on with my life and I just couldn't stop thinking about it yeah like thinking about and I got this whole thing that will get you of about like people's reactions I don't know if you've seen people's reactions to it but like like there's a lot of of course there's a lot of people that like it of course but like the amount of like it making people like feel bad it's like yeah what it reminded me of was like I I think that I get that it was two perspectives on you know trans women this yeah but it just kind of reminded me of like the devil's advocate and like basically like Justine it kind of reminded me of like putting like a Nazi giving a Nazi a platform and like listening to their point of view right and like it just didn't sorry like it was needed yeah yeah totally so let's what I have like I have okay this is overkill but I have I have I have a 12 page timeline or outline which like we can we can we'll go through and scrap stuff and talk about other stuff and well it'll just it'll be what it is yeah but let's let's back up because like you know it's not like that many people are gonna listen to this but like the people who do listen to this might have some idea what we're talking about might have no idea what we're talking about I have a very small idea as well so right it'll be good for me totally totally you know people listening probably know who I am they probably don't know who you are or well you know actually probably most of them it wouldn't surprise me most of them do know who you are but you know I think you've mentioned me in one of your podcasts before just yeah about how we went to Fargo and totally Cody like sent me a link cuz like listen listen to this part might listen to it oh really nice every like gushed about it for a second nice hell yeah so you know like yeah so we're gonna talk about Natalie win who is also contra points on YouTube and we're sort of like dropping into a whole bunch of like controversy and stuff that's going going on around like this video that she put out called the aesthetic and then also like her kind of like I would say just I just say bad reaction to like criticism around it and sort of just like I kind of want to look at some like big picture criticisms that I have of it have of kind of the whole thing and like also kind I mean there's a lot of stuff like I really want to get in the weeds on because there's like a lot of like specific things that are like oh wow this is like not not great and you know it's also kind of like a good opportunity to just talk about like existence as like a trans person and like and and and like ultimately like the selfish reason that I want to do this is like it like I want if I if I talk about the hurt it'll be better you know but yeah so like I don't know we're we're jumping in on this like in the midst of like like a very controversial thing that she has done but like the to me the crux of like why this is a problem is part of that that Twitter thread from June of 2018 and the there's like a question there she's like she's sort of like it's a it's a pretty long thread and maybe we'll go through some of it at some point but like the question that she's sort of like poses in that is like the like the classic like well like what what is a woman like what is womanhood and like she sort of responds to herself in this saying like saying that the idea that a woman that a woman who is anyone who identifies as a as a woman like that idea like that concept which is like a pretty normal like thing that trans people will say like I'm you know like identify this way you know that's like enough proof or like I don't identify as male that's like enough proof that I'm not male or whatever and and she she was like that's not a philosophically good answer which is like a really big bad like that's like a super like ugly thing to me for like a whole bunch of reasons and like I you know I want to like I I want to criticize her in this conversation but also it's like about way more than than her you know it's like I I'm I'm not a fan of her anymore but it's like I don't I don't hate her I don't you know a lot of people are getting really really mmm I mean and you know it's social media like a lot of people online are getting really mad at people who are criticizing her yeah which is like I don't want to be any part of like any of that really so to me like what I want to focus on is like like like I believe that like I like identifying like it's it like it's enough like to me that is philosophically sound and like we can we can get we can get into that oh my gosh so so so speaking of we were talking earlier before we started taping those about lyrics oh yeah I read you some lyrics yes so the sound the years no no my my my aesthetic right now yeah like the soundtrack to my first first like couple months of puberty - mm-hmm is they might be giants techno like in general and also Robert Kramer and Robert has a song that has nothing to do with this at all like what we're talking about it all but there's this line in it that I always loved and I just think it's so like it's so relevant to this the the stanza is another line to read behind these broken symbols are designed to fail you they dominate our lives I can't even get through to you to tell you that I love you and like it's just so like I love you Robert but like you know like the way that that this like system of gender like this mainstream system of gender you know like like it it dominates our lives in it like fucks things up mm-hm and like to the point of like people not to the point of people not being able to understand their loved ones yeah you know and like not just trans people yeah like yeah like the first example that comes to mind is little kids who want to play with a Barbie but their gender says that they can't do that and they carry that on with their like in the rest of their lives and it's like it doesn't make any sense to me mm-hmm yeah yeah I also would like to appreciate that you have your 12 page right out typed and print it out in Stapleton and I appreciate that thank you I just I started writing I started what I read the Twitter threads and watched a video with the mindset that I was gonna write two notes out for this but um as I was doing all of that it was like I couldn't really I didn't really know exactly what to put down so I don't have any notes of my own but I did I did write out like a few lines that she said in her video that like yeah that Justine said that just like kind of stuck out and was just like Oh totally well let's do let's do a couple other things here and then like we should in a second here like recap a little bit of what the the content of the video etc is yeah because I I I heartily don't recommend people go get in the weeds on any of those I don't think I don't think anybody listening should take the time to watch this or to read Twitter yeah ever and and also just like you know whenever whenever I'm talking about trans stuff I like to you know point out like not an expert I don't know anything I'm I've read I've read books and lived a life you know and one of my favorite things that I've ever read that as far as like trans theory just like like a constant excellent reminder was in the preface of trans bodies trans selves Jennifer Finney Boylan an author she writes about like if like if you were to like meet like 5000 trans people you would learn like 5,000 different ways of like how to be trans and the like I am I am so like I love that this gender thing for us for us that gets to be so diverse yeah and unique to everybody like I just I I find that so appealing it's it's comforting yeah that that little that little snip it's very comforting because it's it's it's a really hard thing to go through just in general and to know that there's no real way to do it wrong mm-hmm as long as you know you're doing what you want to do and not harming anyone else yeah there's no real way to do it wrong and totally it's very comforting knowing that yeah yeah yeah I love that cuz it's like that should be everything yeah that should just be like the basis of life but ya know yeah and it's like it's a great it's a great lesson to learn from like being trans or learning about trans stuff oh yeah it's like I don't know like diversity of like any type amongst amongst people or life experiences or like plants you know like diversity is just like I don't know it just it it makes me feel so much better in any any type of thing I just you know it's good so do you do you want to introduce yourself at all go for it is there anything in particular you would like me to say um you can say whatever whatever you want um I guess I guess I'll say like for for me for people who don't know me like I you know I'm a trans woman I feel like so like I feel very I feel very binary despite maybe not having the most like feminine gender expression in terms of like stereotypes yeah and like there's there's certain things I guess so I I relate I relate to you because we're we're both like I'm I'm pretty binary you're you identify as being on the non-binary spectrum but we both have like I feel like we both have gender expression that goes against like what people are telling us to do yeah yeah like in various different contexts yeah which i think is I think we're awesome oh yeah anything like also who like it's like interesting for like this kind of setting or a conversation mm-hmm if that yeah okay well hello podcast audience i'm rigby RI gby like Eleanor nacht it be I've gotten that what it'd be the other day I introduced myself as a Rigby and the guys took my hand I was like did you say it'd be no I'm not Ricky either its Rigby I am Nora's friend we got hormones together hell yeah yeah we're we're hormone siblings yes and it's very good it's fucking awesome puberty together I would consider myself a non-binary a trans non-binary boy so I am after M which is female to male in the weird gross sense that term isn't very good but for people to understand that's what's going on I'm more on the dot non-binary spectrum I just I don't know I express myself in ways that a lot of people don't see as a syst non biases binary male would and yeah I good at saying things but no that's great right like you you enjoy wearing makeup mm-hmm I like wearing makeup makeup is really cool it's really fun I'm not very good at art but I feel like makeup is it's a sense of art if you like you're good at makeup thank you I love seeing what you're up to yeah it's kind of bad today because I was in a bad way yeah that's fine like wearing skirts and and dressing in any way that I feel fit some days it's a skirt some days it's my binder and a button-up yeah I don't know which and and doing those things alone doesn't make me feel like I'm on the non-binary section spectrum they feel that I'm on the non-binary spectrum just because that's how I feel I don't feel like I belong in the binary in general yeah there are plenty of binary trans men who aren't on the non-binary spectrum and don't consider themselves that way and do enjoy wank skirts or makeup or whatever else yeah I'm Rigby that's out oh yeah do you do you have pronoun preferences right now I think save them has been feeling good go see him also works I would like to use them interchangeably totally that's a cool thing yeah I love it when people do that actually yeah I've seen people do that I don't like well well the first thing is is like people changing your pronouns to suit you is already such a horrible hard thing to do for sis people I apparently so it's like two pronouns what so I've never like actually like expressed that that's what I would like to do because oh yeah you know but yeah that's that's cool either one yeah I just like like you don't have to pick why big like my friend my friend sad who was a drag queen yeah I don't know aside told you this but I asked them what pronouns they use when we first met and they were like you can call me he they or she as long as you're calling me something like that and I was like I like you that's I don't know how you're gonna be feeling on the 14th but there's gonna be that pocket vinyl show rhythm records and they're actually doing a drag performance as well that's right that's right that's that rhythm right mm-hmm cool okay cool yes I'm so proud I'm so yeah that's gonna be good and then like Cody and urn violence tricks violence district which I don't know if you've heard any of that yeah actually I heard I heard it or uh I don't think I saw them live but they weren't why not yeah but Cody had the pre-release of the EP I guess yeah yeah I asked if it was a pea and he was like no it's like four songs at three so I guess you would consider that an EP well yeah they're gonna be doing a battle royale set with breakup haircuts as well oh they're like hopefully um because I was telling you about Colt and he is dating this guy Jeremy and they're both well I don't know if they're both into doing drag but I know that Jeremy is and so I'm trying to really get them to come and it's on a Sunday so we don't work and then like some of their friends that I was talking to you or like yeah I want to go so like I'm gonna put a flier up at work and hopefully they're all gonna be there nice yes it's good nice can I got sidetracked I don't know thing I don't I don't obviously you've never done this before so I don't know it doesn't matter it works we just we talked and then uh and then on something or not how long did it take you to like edit it and put it I'm gonna no I'm gonna very minimally edit this because it's it's just it's usually not worth a it's not worth effort really yeah I used to edit things much more but now it's just like it's fine we're having a conversation let's start so actually if you say something and you're like actually you know what I shouldn't have said that tell me and I'll take it out yeah that happens a lot but that happens where I'm laying in bed at night and I'm thinking about my interactions over the day and then I'm like oh why am I like that but yeah wait what is your like following link it it kind of comes and goes I I don't have stats right now actually for the podcast it's kind of a boring explanation but yeah like it it I would say it peaked a while ago and it has slowly tapered off so I think mostly now it's just people who know of me for some other reason yeah you know yeah so but that's fine yeah I feel like Schweitzer would listen to your podcast I don't know why but he came to mind I feel like he should that would be great yeah he's going on it once so what like he's on a phone call oh yeah there's a couple times I've done like phone episodes yeah um okay outline I guess also like we are gonna talk about probably a bunch of heavy stuff on some level I mean it's kind of impossible to not talk about this I'm talking about like transphobia gender dysphoria I mean some of this you know gets into honestly like violence and like suicide and stuff so we'll talk about that some just I that's just a heads up and we can talk about it as much or as little as you know but yeah I don't know like some of the some of the big-picture questions of all of this is like you know like what like the whole I don't know the whole being trans thing like what what is it like she like Natalie has like sort of I don't know it's like like okay okay now we have to like think about this again like what what is being a woman or you know being a man or being a person or etc like like or or and there's also like the question of like what is what is gatekeeping cuz like I look at what she's doing as like a certain type of gatekeeping and I think a lot of people don't um and like where do you draw the line between like something that's like you know like I I think her videos are like I think this video and like some of the discourse around it is like just like just harmful but I also see people saying like it's harmful but it's also like helpful even though it's painful in some ways which I don't know you know like is it okay to [Music] you know make content that like a lot of people relate to but then like a bunch of people also like are like offended by it or like damages a bunch of people and then I mean like the whole framing of her like her like quote-unquote debate with him within her videos like that's I think she I don't know how much you've seen of controversy but that's like a thing that she that she does and it goes back to like Socratic method yeah and like like it's a normal framing thing it's just like in this context like I felt like it really failed it wasn't it wasn't good because I didn't realize I got that they were like debating but it the way that she was doing it it really seemed like Justine was the one who was right yeah like yeah was like Justine's point was the point that she was trying to get across mm-hmm I didn't really understand that she was just like using this as two like examples of two different points until I read her thing that she deleted right totally and that's that's a problem because what Justine was saying was very harmful right into not to put that out there and not like give a disclosure like hey these are just two points you know like that was it was it was very weird yeah well and thinking about it too in terms of somebody who like has never seen her like her videos before or like and you know so she's she's a youtuber she has like 250,000 followers I think like I I kind of feel like an old person sometimes because I like I don't understand the internet kind of like but to me like in my mind like in terms of my like ambient knowledge of like trans people on the internet like I feel like she is like one of the more famous trans people on the internet like there's like actually there's like a good amount there's definitely a good amount of trans people on the internet but like yes but like famous yeah who else am I like do you know Stef and I I'm gonna butcher this I don't even know how you say her name Sanjati something like that no yeah she's a trans woman who she is a pretty good following I think she's like I say modeling I don't think that's it but she's gotten like jobs or whatever from her YouTube you know she's making money from YouTube and she's been like she's a wealthy trans person so she's been she's gotten a lot of surgeries that she's wanted in her transition and she's been like documenting that yeah totally that's one that definitely comes to mind but there others where I've seen that have like very good following on like YouTube and Twitter and stuff she's she's friends with a trans guy named chase it was like also like kind of on the same level as her I don't know much about him but you know they're like kind of like that mhm yeah yeah I don't know of anybody who's doing kind of like what she's doing like there's definitely also YouTube's weird like it is it is very strange yeah and like like I know there's like there's different you know like there's the whole like vlog thing and then there's like beauty YouTube and you know and slime YouTube I don't know if it's hell yeah and then like I was like super like why the heck is this a thing you know and then like I was on Instagram one night and you know um I like explore page like the slime comes up and then I just spent like an hour watching like slime and and kinetics and videos and I'm like okay get this this is good oh cool it's just it's so strange yeah yeah I don't get it but like her first thing of like like doing and doing sort of like you know I I think of her and I like seeing other people talk about her as being like like YouTube's answer to like what would be like what would be at like like the trans version of like like John Oliver type content like on YouTube you know like sort of like taking and taking an issue generally her videos follow the format of like she will like take some sort of issue trying to think of one that a different one that like I've liked but Schilt shield take like some sort of topic and then sort of like over the course of like 20 minutes or so like talk about what's up with that topic yeah and a lot of them have been pretty like it's just like explanatory and like good also using like these characters like both of the characters in the video that we're talking about the aesthetic are like recurring characters okay but like that's sort of her her format like using using herself dressed up as different characters to like explain topics or issues or you know feelings or things that people are going through yeah yeah like recently she did one on like in cells Oh like explaining kind of like that whole fucked up saying mm-hmm and yeah like a lot of her stuff is like stuff that I like would would have like recommended to people I was like education yeah for sure like like like oh you like know nothing about like what I am like here's like a like fairly entertaining YouTube video that might like get you started on that path yeah and like her her her sort of like mission is to like I think she says this to like to convert to convert normies basically to like draw in the people that are like normies or like you know we're even or even like you know or even like bigots yeah to draw them in and then like change their mind okay which is like laudable that's great it's quick yeah that's like an awesome thing to do if if you can do it without like wrecking anything you know and so her background to is like she um she was I she was a philosophy she liked her YouTube says like youtuber something in Ex philosopher she like you know went to college for philosophy I think and then she was maybe more famously like in a grad program for philosophy I don't know if she was going for like a masters or a PhD or whatever but she she did that and then like dropped dropped out and like you know sort of it may be YouTube videos about hating it yeah about hating grad school which is like that's that's yeah I get that but it's like it's it's put her in this position where like her brand is like like she's smart like she is very intelligent but like also this whole like grad school dropout thing means that she's like also like you know like an outsider in a certain way yeah that makes sense like it gives her it gives it gives her like a like a certain sense of like being cool you know yeah like she knows the philosophy stuff but like isn't like she has that knowledge but she hasn't been like consumed by academia like that kind of outsider which like I don't know I think like put her in this position of like I think people see her as sort of like an authority figure yeah and I've seen people like actually literally say that like like oh I view her as a as an authority figure that uh one that you look to for like she has all the right answers yeah or like she is helping ya helping us understand different topics or issues including like the issue of like being trans basically has she spoken on racism at all she has done a few things she did a look at now I remember what it was if it was I think it was housing policy in like Baltimore like racist housing policy oh yeah Nora it was also about like Freddie gray and stuff you forgetful dingus hey I was just wondering cuz if people are looking to her as like an authority figure who has all the answers you know as a white woman like what is she saying about totally totally totally well and it's like it's one of those things to where it's like um like I remember yeah I don't remember that much information from that video I remember vaguely like liking that video but now I'm like I don't I don't I don't know and when you like you know people comparing her to like John Oliver and like there's something about the aesthetic that's similar to because it's like a very like both shows take like a very serious topic and like make it entertaining in some way yeah but the thing about like a show like John Oliver is like there's a whole team of people yeah there's not that checking and it's not yeah it's like not a youtuber yeah which is weird yeah yeah the fact that you point that out is very good I didn't I didn't think about that but yeah just having like one person you know going over these issues by themselves and not having like an outsider point of view as well right can be damaging yeah yeah well and like that's the nature of YouTube yeah which is really weird also that's like the nature of this podcast which is like a great time to read like you know we're not experts and it's and like the nature of her like the way she frames her videos means that like she tries to be like multiple like dissenting yeah multiple views multiple dissenting voices and like my problem with the aesthetic is that I don't think she embodies those like well like at all [Music] like so this this video is like it's it's basically like the caricature of like like both characters are supposed to be like both characters are trans and like one is essentially a caricature of like I guess a leftist and like it seemed like it was like an extreme leftist PC furry person who just wanted to smash everything was the terminus she's right which I didn't it would like I said earlier like it seemed like Justine was the one who was right and that tabby was just very wrong and how she was expressing herself as a trans woman and how you know she wanted to how she was angry and like I did like Justine was saying it was wrong for tabby to be to be angry basically yeah yeah and like like saying she said something about going on TV as a angry trans woman and how that had how that affected people's perspectives of trans people and like I don't know like it just it it bugs me a lot when people don't allow for trans people especially trans women to be angry yeah about their situation and you know like what's going on in the world and how the world views them and treats them and everything you know and it's like we have every right to be angry you know like I don't know and and I don't know it just it just like that that it upset me and and how like they were how she like portrayed tabi I was very I did not like it yeah I I feel like the character of tabi is sort of this like straw man of like what the like just like what like what like a sort of like a right-winger house in their head of like yeah like oh this is like an this is an anti feh like trans person like and like that's the point I guess is to have like that kind of caricature I guess I don't you know which I I'm not a big fan of like the fact that these are like to basically extremes like so tabby you know the like is that extreme and then like Justine is like this like centrist extreme basically like also embodying sort of like I mean there's no I don't think there's any other way to describe her than like transphobic like the character of Justine it seems like almost like turfy yeah and like intentionally yeah like sort of like a caricature of like a of a trans turf yeah and for people who have no idea what the fuck that turf is like it's it's an acronym the acronym is not important because it's inaccurate but we except for the trans exclusionary part it's basically like a turf is a is a woman who thinks that that that trans women are aren't women I mean that's like that's basically yeah basically that yeah that like we're just that we're just men and dress those basically or that were in some way like fake yeah whether it's like we're fake to try and like infiltrate like women's spaces or like we're faking femininity in a way that is like masculine and like destructive to like feminism which like no like yeah it's it's like oh god yeah it's like they've they've you trans women as like inherently violent - you know like womanhood and feminism which is so horribly ironic yeah yeah yeah it's sad so that's that's basically what a turf is and and and Justine like I don't really even care about that much about like going through and like debunking her like a few points like cuz they're like they're all fucked yeah and it's like I mean it's hard to not see it as like I mean like that's the point right like everything Justine is saying it is like it's bad like everything is bad like I like watching it again today just being like every single thing is like that Justine is saying is like wrong and like hurtful in some way but also I was like I read the second Twitter post it's where she kind of explained it it kind of seemed like she recognizes that Justine what she was saying was harmful but it also has kind of seemed like she didn't completely disagree on what she was saying yeah I don't know if that was just me no yeah that's exactly right and like that's that's where this shit starts to get really bad yeah is that just Cena's fucked but there's like reason to believe that Natalie wins beliefs somewhat line up with Justine's beliefs yeah and like I'm really not here to say that Natalie should do or not do like anything like her her trans experience should be her trans experience like she should do whatever she wants the problem is just that like a character like Justine and some of the beliefs that like Natalie is apparently aligning herself with or like going into the territory of like of telling other trans people what to do and also like erasing people yes so really and it's and it's so harmful when you take into account that she has what did you say two hundred and fifty thousand yeah that's a quarter of a million people yeah that are watching this and taking this information in yeah well it's scary because there's no there's no one there's no one in that like I thought that video would end with like the character is being being gone and there being some sort of recap either by Natalie or by a different character that made things make sense that there wasn't there wasn't there just there was none of that so like everything that Justine said like has been absorbed and it's just staying there it's just staying there in people and like that's why I like this whole thing was so destructive for me watching it is just like oh fuck like I I don't want to hear this shit cuz it's not right yeah I know like my brain is having to deal with it yeah it's just it's just like the devil's advocate let go saying before it's just something that doesn't really need to be said unless you are commenting on why this isn't right and this isn't how you should view things right which I didn't do and she didn't do and the big the big problem with the the like I get the whole like this is a Socratic dialogue thing and like that framing of it it's like pretty like pretentious in like an academic way I think sometimes it can be fun and work in this that just completely failed and it completely failed because contra points is not that great at writing she's just not that good at writing or she's deliberately not giving a shit it could it could be either one of those but the character of tabi like doesn't actually refute any of Justin's points yeah there's no actual rebuttal there's only like well but deaded at a in a way that only moves the conversation or the narrative forward in the dialogue but doesn't actually rebut anything yeah I was gonna say I was gonna say something like that like Justine gives off so much information on what she thinks is right you know and and we barely get anything from tabi which if she didn't she didn't give like an overview at the end and if she didn't want to do that she should have given more dialogue to tapi that was like hey this is harmful this is writing in this way but she didn't do that over there and which makes it seem like it's not even a Socratic dialogue yeah it's just like it's just like it it just feels like her hiding behind characters mm-hmm to say some some mean shit yeah and there's one point in the video where tabby does sort of speak out more mm-hmm and it's just like especially watching the second time it's just like her she's just like very shot down in that moment and even the rib from the writing of it too Justine's reaction to tabby all of it even that like sort of emotional outburst of like you know what no one else is gonna look up to me or look up for me so like I have to yeah like even all of that felt designed to make tabby look stupid yeah it was very it was invalidated yeah like all of these things that like like I'm feeling about this that's what tap that's what tabby should have been saying yeah like if this is an informational video yes totally if it's a Socratic dialogue if it's like if it's any actual sort of debate between two different voices like tabbies voice should have been much stronger yes and like if if Natalie when were a good writer she would have been able to guess that you know people would have had certain objections that tabby could have voiced yeah I mean that's like sort of one of the things about writing content like like video or audio content is like when you when you can you you should basically address the thought that's coming into the audience's brain because if you if you don't kind of address those those things that are tending to come up like in the audience like the the whole thing can kind of like not go off the rails but like it it it just it very much like waters down the any following any like helpful like meanie and through it yeah there no god this is like a random thing that really pisses me off but okay so their their names the characters names are intentional so tabby is a tabby cat yeah so Justine the like and and because tabby is a tabby cat like I I feel like it's not that much of a stretch to say like Justine's name is also intentional and like Justine Justine means just justice fair righteous yeah and and and even if it may be it's an intentional it's those things of being a good writer and recognizing that it will have those implications if the other one is obviously was a word that I just used obviously intentional yeah right then you know the audience would gather that Justine's is as well yeah and I mean maybe maybe people aren't but it's like in the context of like Justine really seems like she is supposed to be the right one yeah in this conversation like because because of that like it it doesn't seem like that much of a stretch to like look at the etymology of her name because the etymology of like tabbies name is like relevant so maybe that's maybe that's me being frickin conspiracy theory girl or something but like you know I'm yeah so some of the some of the stuff like thinking about the the deleted tweets so also like have we have we recap to this video enough for people who have never seen it isn't is there anything else like of like big note that I don't think we really I mean did we really like specify what Justine was saying like we've said that it was harmful yeah but in what way I think we should probably cuz we we sure totally we talked about the characters and how they were both on differents extremists on different sides okay maybe like yeah so the video the video like other other than like the intro and outro the the video basically all takes place with Justine and tabby sitting at a table like drinking tea and having a conversation that's basically like the the visual content of the video and then the conversation that they're having revolves around basically Justine saying to tabi who like in the context of these characters like they're their friends or something they know each other their friends you know they don't always get along but there's still like some kind of friendship there and Justine is sort of pushing tabi to do more feminine more stereotypically feminine stuff to try and help her like be recognized as a trans woman yeah basically to quote-unquote so called paths I didn't I did air quotes nobody saw that because I'm talking but that was air quotes like even even sort of like going to the going to the point of like saying like you know tabi tabi is debbie is angry all the time because she's not being recognized as a woman by people that meet her and like Justine's point as well like of course they don't see you as a woman you aren't like basically like playing their aesthetic game like if you were more like me and like dressed more feminine we walked more feminine Lea wore more feminine makeup took off your combat boots you know you know yeah and like a lot of that stuff like the combat boots stuff the way tabby dresses in general like you know me somebody like coming from like a like a punk background you know I wouldn't have I wouldn't have I would I don't know where I don't know actually where I would be if I hadn't if I didn't have like a punk background like that's the that's the reason I started to come to terms with teen trends and like that's like coming booth so I think that's a punk thing like there's a lot of stuff that's like tabby is like Punk adjacent mm-hm an tyfa anti-fog like I've known about anti fuss since I have a child because I grew up around Punk's and and like that's like a total overlap thing yeah anyway so like that kind of shit's like goddamn but like anyway so like that's sort of what Justine is getting at is like you should do this and this and this so you can quote unquote so you can be recognized as a woman you should do these things and yeah their conversation is just Justine seems to be wanting to help tabi yeah but in a very systematic harmful way yeah to like to like change her into something she's not and Abby does even say like you know I thought this feels wrong like I don't want to be something that I'm not and Justine kind of goes so far as to say like that basically that like a lot of the exclusion the Hobby is feeling is tabbies fault yeah because of the way that she presents herself aesthetically and that changing her aesthetics would alleviate that and that there's this really weird argument that in the writing that sort of goes to say like you know the these are these characters are two white women and there's this sort of weird argument of like like tabby because she's like white and privileged like any like the pain or like exclusion that she's feeling is like her fault like hurt it's like her choice like she could she could get out of like if she just changed her aesthetic yeah she could like there's no there's a specific line in there that's something like you know you you're privileged you should at least use your privilege and like do something for the world instead of like just yelling at people yeah I thought that was very strange that little part I forgot about that yeah totally yeah yeah like basic argument is like transness is about aesthetics more than how you feel yes which is absurd yeah and like I think anybody go ahead I mean if if that is your experience as a trans person wholly that is okay that's you but enforcing that on the entirety of trans people is harmful and not realistic yes yeah I think that's like the main point of what she's getting at Justine yeah yeah totally yeah and it's good for for me to remember to like that there isn't anything wrong with like somebody's trans experience being particularly aesthetic like rather than like my my trans experience is not not primarily aesthetic it's it's to use a word Natalie at some point uses sort of opposite to the way that that I'm using it but like my my trans experience it is very like metaphysical like I like I don't believe in like feminine essence or anything like I think that's also like pretty shitty I just have this internal feeling and have like since forever of like I'm female you know and like that that that is like the primary thing in my trans experience rather than a specific type of aesthetic yeah and yeah but yeah totally and like even even my my trans experiences is partially aesthetic like I am on testosterone because I want facial hair and I want to look a certain way while still presenting myself in a feminine sort of way sometimes you know and I also want top surgery yeah look a certain way and there's nothing wrong with that yep yeah but I don't believe that every trans man should be on testosterone or laptop surgery or any type of physical transition to be a trans man because that's just not realistic and expecting stopped breathing and expecting trans people to go through transitioning like physical transitions not only invalidates like and validates people who don't want to do that it also like has an element of classism because right yeah I mean it was only just now that I could actually be on testosterone even though I've wanted it forever like for the past four or five years and I don't know when I will be able to get Top surgery because I just can't afford it and there are so many trans people out there who want to transition a certain way but just can't afford it because our healthcare system is fucked and doesn't care about trans people and like when you're in a place of privilege class wise and are able to get these surgeries and raw-boned treatments or whatever it is and like invalidating other people who can't do that it's just it's classist and it sucks and it's it's it's so harmful it's it's awful it's and and that's something that makes me really sad because like as I said I can't do some of the things that I want to do because I don't have the money right and and that's that's part of that that's part of why it's so harmful is because you know yeah yeah yeah there there's this very I think weird argument that in that threat from June Natalie makes and refers to and it's a it's a very it sort of takes that and kind of flips it in this weird way of like like I guess first I should say like Natalie also recognizes that that class thing and one feels that class divided because she has basically because of patreon because she has enough money she like is gonna like get this surgery and did it uh and like talks about like a list of things that she wants to do and it's like yeah fuck yeah you should do that that's fucking great and talks basically talks about other trans people putting a stigma on like her and other trans women who have the means and want to get ffs official oh feminization surgery to change what you know whatever about their face saying that that the people that don't have the means to do that essentially are sort of like judging her even to the point of saying like plastic surgery is immoral yeah and like then from from that there's this this other argument like sort of stemming off of that that says like and like this is like I'm pretty sure the person who Natalie was referring to that was like and she was like retweeting her in this thread I'm pretty sure this person is a trans medical list and actually like I'm pretty sure she's self-identifies as true scum yeah so yeah and people who don't know what these things are they're interchangeable terms I don't really want to get into the ED emoji a truce calm right now or true trans but like transmetal coalesced and all of that broadly basically just means like often like just like the basic definition is like somebody who believes that first you have to have dysphoria to be actually trends and then like if you're not like going through the medical processes of you know hormones various surgeries basically as much surgery as you can do to make yourself as in the binary as you can that you're that you that you're not actually trans yeah and yeah so this person that Natalie was retweeting and who I believe I self-identifies as true scum true true trans trans medical list wasn't making this argument that like you know actually if like if like actually the trans medical list position is correct because what's going on is like you know neoliberalism is fucked up and like capitalism is fucked up and basically like if everybody who is trans like had enough money to do all of the stuff like like we'd all be doing it or like Oh like basically everybody would be doing like it's it's like this like weird like argument of like inevitability yeah like if the money was there like people would like this would just be like like everybody would be would be doing that because like that is like to them seemingly correct or something yeah we're like you know I don't know yeah I know my I resisted hormones for years yeah you know even so like I'm unlike the way other end of that and still feel very very very binary yeah so yeah my ex who is a trans girl just doesn't want anything like that doesn't you want to really transition and even uses like he him just her like you know the sake of like I don't know what you would call like they're okay with it because like you know I don't I don't know what word I'm looking for right now but basically you know they they don't I don't want to transition and they have a beard and you know they present in ways that you know are quote-unquote masculine but in in but for them that is their femininity that femininity that is their womanhood that's just their experience oh and they don't want to change it because that's what it is for them you know yeah yeah I haven't like yeah trans people like that exists and that's it there's nothing wrong with being trans in that way because like you said every trans experience is different right and right they don't need to do anything to be trans but besides identify as that and it's that's basically what we're talking about but yeah yeah yeah and it's so it's I don't know it's weird like I thought that was like the baseline like why doesn't why doesn't every why doesn't everybody agree that without yeah I don't it's yeah like that that whole thing it's like there's see where is the thing that I'm looking for here because that on the on I would I wonder if there are any people who like self-identify as like trans fat Achilles who are poor cuz like I just don't see that that wouldn't make sense you know because like how without what that like there might be but there there's probably a lot of like self-loathing involved in that okay yeah you know that just like kind of popped into my head and then like also like I remember like some popular trans man came out self-identifying as like trans medical estándar but then I'm like trying to justify himself and and being like well you know there are some poor people who can't afford it but once they get the surgeries you know then then they're a trans person or whatever and like I'm just saying at what at what point in in in that case at one point are they truly a trans person you know like like what now did you think it about trans medical is cuz it's so that has always fucked me up in a in a in a weird way cuz it's just how does that make sense in your friend brain right right it's like um it's like well and thinking about thinking about the diversity diversity of being trans like that that experience having having something that's that's that varied I feel like is just I mean almost almost like naturally pretty precarious like there there's not like a lot of examples for that in our society where it's like every single person is different and we're all just like accepting of that fact mm-hmm like that's pretty like pretty rare yeah and introducing something like a trans medical estat diversity yeah it turns it from like okay here's a bunch of people and then like here is the like so-called like correct way to be trans and like and more and more people will probably like gravitate towards being correct because they want to be validated by something mm-hmm you know I think a lot of the trans medical listing is just like like wanting wanting to wanting to feel valid in some way and like not wanting to deal with the ultimate ultimate bullshit of like you know the our gender system patriarchy misogyny making endless amounts of bullshit of all sorts of types you know yeah it's a way to sidestep a whole bunch of like shit mm-hmm and just like point out the other people and say like they're the bad trans people yeah like I'm I'm validated and I'm this is I'm right yeah yeah like I'm trans but it's not that weird because it's like I'm just like you I just like you know yeah I think it's I feel like it's easier first people to get you know there's the whole like you know born in the wrong body sort of perspective which I think it's like the trends like the trans medical list thing like makes the whole whole like born in the wrong body thing like it that just takes it to like a different level gonna yeah and yeah I don't know oh that's that's one of those things where it's like like for me like I do actually feel that way like feel like okay like yeah that's that feels true like that I was born in the wrong body but like I mean because I'm basically an atheist like it can't be literally true because then that implies some sort of like intention yeah based on like what like there was no God that like fucked up my mom didn't fuck up you know like I don't I don't know like it just it feels that way but it's not it's not accurate yeah which is really like a weird paradox so like live inside us mm-hmm yeah I've never really thought of it in that in that sense with with religion tied to it I guess yeah do you do you feel that way because I know some I know some trans people really reject that idea because they're just like and this like I I am really glad actually that they that people are like critical of that and reject that because it's like it's a it's like an extra level of like trans pride yeah which is like not a lot of yeah like there's a lot of like yeah transit sucks yeah you know and like it does but it's like oh it would be cool if I could just be accepted and be proud yeah you know I don't know if I would say that I was born in the wrong body I do want to make changes to my body as it is yeah obviously and I wouldn't mind maybe maybe Oh like like I said I don't know if I would say that I was born in the wrong body but I do really wish that I had been born assist male you know you want to take away from my transness I think if I had been born as a sis male I would still have some sort of trim this in me I would still feel non-binary yeah totally totally cuz like my what my goal with transitioning and like what I want is to be perceived as a boy but a boy who is is very flamboyant and feminine and you know one who is kind of like androgynous I guess yeah yeah totally so yeah I've never really thought about that like in depth I was just like yeah yeah yeah for me it's something it's something like I personally want to work past I guess like I would you know because there are there are certain things that the Natalie sort of talks about that I relate to you that's like it's stuff like I've I feel like I've gone through and and I am going through she she and I are just coming to very like different conclusions I guess it's just like like there you can you can take you can take the feeling of being trans like and just like slowly like like level by level like like makes it make it make it worse like and like when I'm you know like when I'm at my most dis for ik or whatever like that's that happens of just like okay so like you know what or even preemie starting hormones like feeling like well it's not really gonna do anything I'm too old you know it's all kind of fucked anyway and then then and now still having this feeling of like well can I have my can I have my fucking childhood back can I have like my correct childhood like can I you know like I think a big part of my dysphoria when I was young was just like wanting to hang out with girls but like not not like not like not that like not happening yeah you know like I just yeah yeah I thought I've thought a lot about I I watched the movie boyhood yeah which was basically just like three straight hours of crippling dysphoria for me yeah and and and and then like stranger things and stuff like that like mmm Goonies or whatever just like seeing these examples of like a tight knit boat tight okay well like I've done that I've done that a few times for some reason I keep saying tighten it and then they also just saying it I don't that's happened a few times this week but just like having like I feel oh god I technic Group group of guys who like you know like grow up together and like do a bunch of cool stuff like adventuring and and like um playing Dungeons and Dragons or whatever and like like that sort of childhood I really I totally I wish I experienced that like I hear my friends talking about when they were like teenagers or whatever like just hanging out with the bros and like eating pizza and doing stupid shit yeah you know like I just I wish I had that yeah like so I definitely get where he coming from with the the childhood thing totally like yeah and like you know like I had a a group of guys that I hung out with and I just I felt excluded in a way that didn't make sense in a way that wasn't like them it was just like this nebulous like oh why I don't this was weird I had that that seemed because I had Jonah I didn't have a lot of friends growing up but when I was friends with girls you know a boy it was yeah that you put in a you know you phrased it in a way that it was like okay me yeah yeah and then like I would try to have guy friends and sometimes most of the time they would just end up wanting to fuck and then right that was yeah totally I was in this weird place where I just never had friends and also being a anxious little weirdo that couldn't talk to people until I was like 17 so totally yeah oof childhood yeah let's not get into that yeah but sort of the point that I was making there is just like it it's this like series of like okay well like I I'm not my future isn't gonna be good like my future isn't gonna be good enough like I'm never gonna like be able to like look in the mirror and recognize myself so like why even do anything and like I'm never gonna be able to you know replace my my past like I'm like all of that is just like so just like why yeah yeah I don't remember why I was you were talking about layer like in your in your worst dysphoria moments layers of like bad yeah but no I don't remember I was going there in the first place but anyway I you know that's oh well yeah I guess like this thing of being born in the wrong body like is is connected to that mm-hm and like I just have to like yeah so like I'm just I'm like wanting to work through like accepting like the it's okay like it's okay yeah I don't have to feel like my childhood was like stolen yeah and part of like part of that how part of how I'm coping with that is like being okay with like describing my experience like as girlhood as womanhood like because there's not really another relevant way to like describe it like I never I didn't have a boyhood like I don't that doesn't make any sense to me like not not just as like a internal like feeling thing but like just the weight like I didn't I didn't have a boyhood like like a sis boy like it's just not it's not it's just isn't that even though like I was chillin with dudes like it you know so like if it's not girlhood if it's not womanhood like what he said is it just like this I mean childhood and like personhood but like that's not accurate either like I think that doesn't reflect so like oh that is but you know sort of stepping back and just saying like like the things that I've gone through including like testosterone poisoning like has has made me into like a special fancy kind of woman and like that like that's I it's it's it's hard to like accept that things are the way they are and like try to like be compassionate with the pain mm-hmm but like it feels like the right thing to do and like I feels like I don't have any options like night as well like not be horrible to myself yeah and the the arguments that that Natalie is actually making do negate that like so like okay so gender like what what what is gender that we can like actually say that it is because gender is not gender expression yeah so to me like gender is just it so it gets a feeling mm-hmm and it's I don't think people usually understand the word feeling in that context yeah because it's because feelings can change feelings are totally dependent on like all sorts of different things but it like this immutable like internal feeling and to me like the best sort of comparison is like that gender is as complex and hard to define as consciousness like there's no way for there's no way for you to know that I'm conscious yeah like I I'm a robot okay freaks me out a little bit right but I get you but totally like you you don't know yeah you there's no way there's no way for like us to test that and it's like really hard to tell like to actually like scientifically tested to it's really hard to test it in animals it's really hard to test it in animals of different intelligence like we can pretty easily go like well a dolphin can tell that it is itself like when it looks in a mirror and has like um you know like something drawn on it it can tell that that's that dolphin is it looking at itself yeah yeah like is that just offense um I think there's some I think there's some other animals that can do that I don't think dogs can I think like something random like don't quote me on this but like elephants like some random thing um this is some off track but I just like animals that's really cool I didn't know that animals hold my cat up and I don't think she knows that's her she's just like yeah come here yeah yeah right looks like bark at the mirror sometimes yeah and and the like this this like dot test of like having it not painted on you like that a dolphin can go through and recognize itself like so like a dog I'm pretty sure can't do that out but that doesn't mean that they're not conscious yes like we don't have like a specific test to be like was it conscious like you know our fish conscious like I think I think like the general consensus is like probably not but like what does that mean even like and like that's not like as far as I know that's also not totally like the not it's not like it's not proven that they don't have consciousness and they feel pain yeah they they do I think have longer memories than we think I think fish are smarter than we are cows are smarter than you think they are um like it's really hard for me to imagine that like like dude like squirrels like of course they're conscious like it's hard for me to imagine that even like I personally I think it fish probably are conscious it's hard for me to imagine that they're not it's just like a different kind of consciousness I'm having a crisis now like any of those questions like are you alive like right yeah okay so that's enough of that but I get it that's a really good point and like gender is like as complex as oh yeah there's no way for for us to like look if somebody could just like poke me have you like well yeah you're you're trans and this is what you need to be prescribed here you go this is why you and blah blah blah this test works blah blah blah that'll be great unlike everybody could fucking do it like that we would fix so many problems I feel like a lot more people would be trans as well I feel like a lot of people are trans and have no idea that they're trans yeah especially especially if you like delete the whole gatekeeping around like non-binary identities i think there's a lot more non-binary people than like then we think basically and like totally trans you know so the thing is is that like trans people have been around since humans have and the thing is is that it's been getting like quote-unquote popular lately right right because that whole myth yeah because it's only been getting popular or whatever because more people have access to the vocabulary yeah more people are aware of what it is and like the different identities that go along with transness they have access to it and that's why it's you know there are more people who are realizing that they're trans because they have access to it and like yeah absolutely like the older generation like I feel like there are so many of them who probably you know like to feel that way but have never had the vocabulary to address it or the you know like social se acceptance but like this this social atmosphere - yeah yeah explore it that's what yeah for sure and and and I feel like a lot more people should explore gender because mhm there's so much to it there's it's there's there's so much to it it's it's more than just an outward expression of how you learn stuff yeah yeah and if you remove all the like stigma it's like it's just awesome yeah it's right it's really cool like just you know exploring who you are and how you feel and what makes you comfortable and what makes you uncomfortable and just exploring that and it's really good and it's really healthy yeah even if you come out of it and still identify a cyst like yeah the experience of you know exploring it and you know knowing for sure and also having an Outlook on transness even if it's just a little bit kind of like you know maybe not like an Outlook on transness if they're not trans but like kind of like an idea of how complex gender could be there's a better way to say that yeah I think this needs our help that's that's one thing I've been debating with myself on is like should i educate people I know that I don't I'm not obligated to write it's just like because you know like with work with everyone knowing that I'm trans but not really understanding it like I've been very like patient with them and explaining when I can but like at the same time it's like Google's free I don't know um I'm like and like with with race as well and bigoted people it's like yeah when do I have to educate them and and how and and like you know like it's that sort of thing I've been I've been like thinking about that a lot that's kind of but yeah I don't know if you've I don't know how you feel about that but I understand why was English no no completely completely I get that yeah I think it's really it's it's it's one of those kind of individual choices that depends on like a whole bunch of factors I think yeah and like i I want to contribute about like broad sort of like education yeah but I don't like people you know like I just it's it's so hard so like I I like to do like what I can when I can but it's it's pretty hard here and it's pretty hard for me right now and like it's it's it's a it's but it's definitely like a goal I I don't I don't I don't know I I feel like I can I can handle like taking a lot of shit from people but then it just like really hurts like I can I can take it and like do pretty well in the moment but then like something about it will just like fuck me out for like yesterday's or weeks what's up I don't like fester yeah yeah totally I mean this whole thing is a good example that I think this whole contra place thing is I don't I don't like dealing with this like yeah it's like because there's nothing really that you can that you can do to I mean obviously we all have our coping mechanisms and stuff but like there's nothing in the grand scheme of things that we can man that sounds nihilistic like they when we're stuck with these feelings of yeah people think being shitty to trans people there's not really anything that we can do like in the in the in the grand scheme abroad one person you know totally and it's really hard to deal with it yeah yeah I think this is going kind of a like this is a total other thing but I think about do you know Tana Hoshi Coates he's a black writer just brilliant brilliant fucking guy and he he talks about the you know people talk about the the moral arc of the universe that whole thing that MLK talked about so an MLK had this quote about the moral arc of the universe bending towards justice and like I feel like just like liberals essentially broadly I have like sort of taken that as like taking that taken that quote and said like that what MLK was saying was like the moral arc bends towards justice and that's inevitable things are like progress is slowly happening and everything is slowly getting better well that's that's not actually what he said yeah what he said was like we think that that moral arc will bend towards justice if we push it that way and I I think the first person that like clarified that for me was was Tennessee Coates in in like an interview where he also sort of went on to say like justice is not in our lifetimes mmm-hmm like it's that that moral arc like comes forward and back and and both at the same time blah blah blah but like us if we if we ever get to that plane as a species like we're not gonna see it yeah like there's gonna be big big changes in our lifetimes but like who knows I mean yeah I feel like that a lot has changed in like in my lifetime definitely but but there's still so much that is I mean the same and it's even gotten worse and yeah yeah yeah what were we talking about right before that education oh yeah yeah I think I think why I've been having that sort of debate with myself it's like yeah I feel like a lot of non marginalized people rely on the marginalized to educate them so they are as bigoted right totally totally and so I'm just like yeah yeah so I a weird debate I think the worst part of the whole education thing like that that that topic is just like that people like those people those people who like rely on us in some way or the other like also like when they get the information from us they don't they like they don't believe it yeah like you're wrong on the subject that you're like kind of living through but yeah but I despite like the the moral arc being fucked like I I have seen I have seen it work in my lifetime in terms of like individual people like that I've that I've seen like change like that other people that I've seen change and like I know like I have changed because I've been called out on shit yeah you know and you know and and some of that just being basic like basic education and of just like yeah there's this other thing and it exists and it doesn't matter what you think it exists yeah like me being judgemental about it is like makes no difference about anything mm-hmm like might like my opinion on this doesn't matter because like it has nothing to do with me and it's like this other thing over here that exists and like it's and yeah I mean like for me for me like working through like internalized transphobia over like like like real hard for the last decade you know mm-hmm which there I mean there's you know like there's specific people like if they hadn't educated me about certain things like what the fuck would be nothing you know yeah I don't know what I think something stupid on Twitter that I some sort of thread that I read I've gotten it in my head that you know this that has started this weird debate with myself no I don't know yeah yeah I mean you're not obligated to to do it you know and I also have like a weird a very very weird problem with authority just like if somebody says like I have to do something I'm just like fuck you know I don't have to do that like it could be like you need to clean your house no I don't like clean it what I want to I don't want to clean it now that you've told me to clean my house you know that sort of thing yeah yeah yeah totally like can I say the f-word yes you can curse you can curse on this podcast shit yeah no it's a family-friendly podcast get his family friendly swearing you this family friendly right yeah okay so I don't know anything about families this reminded me of that because I was gonna make a joke about transness not being family friendly well I came out to my entire family on Facebook yeah on your birthday like on your birthday yeah so everyone down in Texas knows that I am trans yeah and there was recently my grandmother's birthday where everyone was together and they were all hanging out and they went to dinner and stuff and my mom FaceTime me while they were at my aunts house and I said hi to everybody and my mom was like everyone say hi to Rigby and you know I really like hi some people said hi Rigby you know is kind of weird but it was like it's cool overall like it was it was cool but after I got done my sister had texted me in the group chat and and was talking about how my uncles were being weird oh god yeah and then and then they said something to my sister about like why are they calling her Rigby like why not do you want me to bleep that I don't care most people know I don't mind it okay yeah I mean when somebody uses it I don't care who they know but um thank you for asking yeah totally but so they were like asking why why aren't you using our dead name you know and my sister was trying to explain to them like it's it's because I'm trans and this is my name now you know on that and my aunt who was her son has a kid who she basically take care that takes cares of takes care of and he's he's probably I don't like eight or something like around there and they were both right there and my aunt goes like covers his ears it's like Shh not him you know am i inappropriate as a human being cuz this is who I am my fuck is that right well it's like says people think this is a sex thing oh god that's I know so weird they also like um a tie in gender with sexuality like yeah yeah like I don't know like why are you a guy if you like boys like when the gay now are like the other way around like wouldn't want to be this so you're not gay or whatever it it's just like yeah yeah they're two different things like oh they're all fine like why yeah also oh no you're gay now I'm inappropriate to children just in general yeah so yeah those kids they need to hear that yeah they need to hear about you hear about us yeah what's like hormone blockers for kids yeah what a cool thing yeah what an awesome thing what a fucking awesome thing that like scares so many freaking right-wing weirdos yeah I'm just like that would be so cool if I had that like if I had had the vocabulary and the access and then totally that the parents to support it you know and then and then now I'm thinking about like little kids who that's their reality and they have like pets you support that and you know like one a health about yeah you know like because our generation like I guess I don't know what generation do you identify I guess I'm millennial yeah generations aren't real so people are born yeah yeah it's you know it it's it's one of those things it's like useful in like certain types of like statistics and stuff I guess but like you know people born in like 83 or something are also considered millenials yeah and then like pre that is Gen X but like people born in like E that's like almost 10 years older than me like a millennial yeah but but I guess like Millennials I feel I feel like they're like you know the most I feel like we're more open-minded than um any other generation that has been you know I don't know how true that is well we're certainly more open-minded than on this kind of stuff than like boomers yeah I I don't know about genetics yeah because I don't know that many Gen X people like people born in 70s roughly and the Gen X people I'd you know are like cool so it's hard for me to judge that if you like there I don't know what I'm getting at yeah so that was like Millennials like are open-minded about you know sexuality and and transness and you know more than more than before I feel like and those two things specifically and I feel like that'll be really good for the kids yeah Youth and yeah I have a lot of hopes for the youth and for coming generations because I feel like I'd like to think that it'll only get better from here but yeah yeah who fucking knows who knows what I mean we know you've got you know so right yeah totally like I mean also like these crazy kids who knows what the fuck they're gonna do these crazy like racist kids that are just getting more racist that's what if what if that happens like boomers are pissed off because we're like using our phones and like we end up being pissed off because the kids are all racist like like possible like I have noticed that I mean obviously like we're a lot more open-minded and and things are like cool for the most part but but there are still those shitty little awful children and people our age or just like oh my god they're just as bad as the boomers and it's like a young person like howhow are you doing this right now yeah yeah lose my mind yeah and I guess it it's because of the boomers cuz you know there's there's like I don't know my brain is weird but I was trying to find something here because I was gonna say something about we get off track oh that's fine so these things go I was just thinking about like I should read us a couple of these specific things that in these in these threads because like I feel like any I you know I all this like thinking about sort of contra points and her some of her perspective on this is like I I just don't I don't think anything that doesn't like focus on unyuu 'the basically is like is philosophy that should be just like thrown out like I I feel like she kind of uses her her sort of like perceived Authority around like philosophy to like it's it's so it's so sad cuz it's like she like she's legitimately like very intelligent and then we'll like use her like she will like come to the like like speaking away that's very like eloquent ins and smart incoherence of but then like come to completely wrong conclusions but they seem right because she's smart yeah and like this whole thing of you know philosophically like okay so in in June June 12 she in this one of the things she said in this in his thread was actually let me do she's talking about I mean I mean I got one more here actually well do the context for this she says I think the goal of transition is more than self-acceptance it is to become your gender to live your gender which genuinely raises the classic turf gotcha question what does it mean to be a woman define womanhood she goes on to say that quote I think there are two answers a pragmatic one and a philosophical one the pragmatic answer is that a woman is anyone who identifies as a woman it's pragmatic because there are many situations where it's best to act as if it is true for example a trans woman who hasn't transitioned yet but requests she/her pronouns is entitled to that respect however quote within a quote here a woman is anyone who identifies as a woman is not a philosophically good answer it tells you absolutely nothing about what being a woman is so how do we answer philosophically like all of this controversy that's going on with her right now like to me is like fucking who cares because like that exists yeah like that that's like that's that's really bad and like it's outside of like like that's enough to make this controversy like very serious I guess yeah like it it shows that like her her feelings are actually lining up with just with Justine's this whole like act of as if it is true like it's true why why why is she not seen that like why and the reason she's not seeing it is because of her like bad philosophical conclusions around this she she she goes on to say like quote well like all philosophical questions what is womanhood has no definitive answer but I'll tell you my thoughts remember I'm a Wiccan Stein gal weaken Stein is a philosopher German I don't really know we can sign but anyway he's a philosopher quote remember I'm a wicking Wittgenstein gal I don't think the is it Vic in Stein might be Vic in Stein I'm saying Wittgenstein like an asshole bit Kim Stein victim Stein come on Nora you can do it say it San Vidkun Stein he's Austrian British quote I'm a Wiccan sang gal I don't think the answer can involve identifying because meaning is public and practical not private and psychological so this is like next-level gatekeeping shit yeah this is like I am gonna put on my smart fucking academic hat and say like well I dropped out of fucking grad school and I read a bunch of books and those books have helped me understand that you know like all of this identity stuff is meaningless like it's not like there's no other that's all it is yeah I mean like that's it's like that's like enough like how how how else should we do this then like if if gender needs to be more than just like self-reported like gender identity needs to be more than that like what what isn't what option is there like I don't I don't know and like I love the idea of like taking a holistic perspective on like a person's gender like there's gender identity like which like you know your experience gender your authentic gender or the thing that the you feel there's gender expression which doesn't necessarily have any connection to gender identity necessarily like it can it could be all sorts of different things regardless of that and then you know tied into this I feel like a lot of trans theory revolves around these like Julia Serano and some other like more governmental like it's it's pretty status quo for like a holistic gender approach to have gender expression gender identity and also sexuality and like those things like holistically not exclusively but like like there can be other stuff but like that that gives you a pretty good idea of a person yeah in terms of that that sort of stuff and to like completely negate like one of those three things and and just say she basically says it's all about gender expression it's all about perception the like the only sex yeah the only thing that's real to me is the way I'm perceived the next tweet after that the way I think of it quote the way I think of it the purpose of my transition is to become a woman for most intents and purposes that's a very public social goal that primarily involves the interactions I have with people around me when I came out and said I am a trans woman that was not so much a metaphysical Proclamation as a statement of intent to alter my behavior in appearance appearance and request for other people to treat me and talk about me in a certain way what I really want is not for people to call me a woman because they pity me synthesize me sympathize with me or respect me it's better than them calling me a man but only as a last resort really I want them to call me a woman because it feels natural to do so because I just seem like a woman to them this is not something I can just demand so a lot of the burden is on me so like there's a there's a lot there that's like that's like if if that's your goal there's nothing wrong with that yeah the problem is just like when it comes to like saying that it's not like philosophically sound mm-hmm to do otherwise which you know and who just like decide this right also yeah and like how how much that's just like how much that is is reverberating it's wild to me like gosh the Internet is weird like just how much of like an explosion this has been for a lot of people and then so the the worst thing the worst thing in the there's a lot of bad stuff in the deleted thread one of the things that I found to be the worst was she she talked about before I transitioned I identified as genderqueer for a while I presented basically as what used to be called a male transvestite people were sometimes shitty about that but my coming out with the NB identity was greeted mainly by sure whatever bro wear whatever you want I found that as an aim AB and B I was for most intents and purposes socially structurally materially still a man whereas when I came out as a trans woman and began acting accordingly every single aspect of my life was offended she goes on to say I'm sure this is not the experience of many n bees I leave it to them to articulate what n be existence looks like in a binary world I do not and cannot speak for them but surely this this is the like quote but surely an account that begins and ends with I'm not a man because I don't identify as one is pretty weak yeah yeah yeah I remember that one and being like what rate and like and I'm really glad I stumbled across this uh this threat from June because like it gives context to everything like she doesn't really get into this thing of like I'm I'm a Wiccan Stein gal being like in this deleted threat I I don't think I don't remember her talking about that but like she's making the same argument that she was making back in June yeah of like it's not like I'm not a man because I don't identify one to her is a philosophically weak argument mm-hmm which like fuck you yeah like and that's and like that's why people are that's why people are so mad and it's like she did she put this out after the video before what I would I just read because the video came out a week and a half ago issue it came out in September before before what I just read before the is pretty weak stuff okay what I just read was part of like that whole deleted thread yeah that was like kind of her explanation yeah she liked the title of the thread basically was some endnotes to the aesthetic so she was just sort of responding to some of this is her this is her responding to criticism which like god damn and like with this response being a response to this video it's like it just makes it seem even more like she agrees with Justine right right well and then she goes to say she goes on to say quote to return to Justine it's right to point out that she is a little villainous she's harsh she's insensitive she's hyperbolic she's glib but she's not Tiffani tumbles Tiffany tumbles is another character hers that is like distinctly just Tiffany tumbles has basically Blair white you know Claire wait no no okay Claire wait Blair white is like Blair white is is the trans woman who is like very very trans medical is and associates with like Breitbart she like people basically people people call her a Nazi okay and it's people call her a Nazi because she's very very bad okay yeah so so so she's saying she's bad but she's not that bad no no no oh okay well let me let me read it again but like Tiffany tumbles is a character made like mostly to like satirize and mock the whole Blair white thing you know my innopolis right yes so imagine my up Louis that same sort of type of person but a trans woman like that same sort of approach so okay so to return to Justine it's right to point out that she's a little villainous she's harsh she's insensitive she's hyperbolic she's glib but she's not Tiffani tumbles she does care about tabie in fact she loves tabi and genuinely wants to help so Justine genuinely wants to help is what she's saying so basically is she's saying like she's bad but she's not that bad like in comparison to definitely Tiffany eatables is that is that well I'll throw in a couple more things here quote I'm sick this is like a tweet after after that quote I'm sympathetic to justine because people like her willing to privately sidestep the I'm not gonna say this word because I think it's offensive but it's a word that describes thought there's so much shit to like unpack in all of these they're Natalie takes issue with the way that trans people compliment each other and say I don't know if you've I don't know how much trans phases like this online that you you seen but like for example like trans timelines on reddit which really helped me a lot personally basically to try and characterize this right like Natalie sort of alleges that people in those sort of communities will compliment the shit out of each other regardless of their actual level of attractiveness mm-hmm is that she saying that's bad yeah yeah yeah yeah natalie is saying that's bad natalie is saying give me the truth oh no no also uh I'll say this but the I don't like saying it out of context the word the no it's it's fine because I then I can give the context for why I think it's offensive the word is hug box so basically like you're sending a message to their inbox that is a hug you're complimenting someone disingenuously okay here's what she's saying the opposite argument to this is that that whole thing is like part of like that's part of the point is that we're redefining beauty like which like fuck yeah yeah I think the fact that all that shit like yeah yeah that beauty in it in and of itself is like holy fuck like there's a lot of problems there outside of this whole conversation you know outside of anything to do with gender and and trans-ness the reason I don't like hug box is that there is an actual thing called a hug box that autistic people use and I believe it's it's something that essentially helps make it it's calming it's a common thing so she should know I saw a couple of people on Twitter who were saying like I'm autistic stop it's like very offensive so yes yeah right yeah right exactly like fucking come on like also like it's such a mean term okay I don't get why that's a problem like trying to make people feel better about themselves like I mean in a malicious way yeah I get that but I mean like I don't I don't get that but yeah and it's also like if you don't want that then like okay fine don't shit on them yeah cuz it's like it's a real thing it's like a real like important thing mm-hmm you know like freakin I going back to the yes so so whatever they want yeah yeah exactly exactly the where this where this goes from there I'm sympathetic to just seen because people like her willing to privately sidestep the hug box and divulge pragmatic MTF wisdom over tea have been the most helpful to my transition I owe a lot to people like that let's show okay I'm glad they're helping you this is what's called the trans mom relationship so she's saying that Justine is a trans mom yeah quote something I've wanted to depict in a video for a while of course I'm a lot more eager to learn than tabi oh okay of course I'm a lot more I'm gonna set that over quote this is what's called the trans mom relationship something I've wanted to depict in a video for a while of course I'm a lot more eager to learn than tabi if someone wants to teach me to walk in heels I'm like yes mommy show me I'm desperate but of course it is a kind of Justine Ian's vision of transsexuality that has turned out to be what works for me other trans women have other visions involving combat boots perhaps that they can make work just as well as Justine finally concedes in the video and she sort of goes on to say like how she's in this very unique position of like going through her transition super publicly yeah which like holy fuck that sounds bad it sounds horrible it sounds like it'd be the worst whoa and like very like totally sympathetic to that I don't understand I think it's good that like Justine Justine Ian trans mom's like helped her yeah I don't understand that I don't think taffy was unwilling to learn or she she said that tabby wasn't wasn't eager yeah wasn't eager to learn whereas she Natalie would be eager to learn and what has been eager to learn I don't think Tammy was an eager to earn I think just Dean was being a shit yeah and I don't feel like Justine would be a good trans mom yeah that's like kind of the way I feel about it - I speak especially when she starts saying stuff like taking the the trans black pill and like you know you got to see the world for the way it actually is like you know I don't it seem like it's it's hard to talk about because like if that's really what's working for Natalie like good but like yeah but gosh it seems like the worst kind of tough love yeah you know and if if if the person that I guess would be the trans daughter to this trans mom is wanting to be you know is on the same page as Justine and wants to be as feminine you know as possible and wants people to see her as ASIS I feel like that would be good so you know like Justine could help her like with that journey like Justine would be a good trans mom - to another Justine basically yeah yeah to a tabi not good yes yeah it's not what tabi wants you know totally so totally it's just it's so this okay so this is where this gets like really really like hard though because like because all of all of this all of this is like Natalie saying like yeah Justine she's insensitive but she's good yeah which I think Justine is transphobic yeah so there's because that because of like I don't know like because of this sort of it's almost like a like a false equivalence like two sides sort of thing where like like a lot of what Justine is saying is just like like to me it's like unacceptable yeah so I don't I don't know how to like parse that out of like what what in this is like good for Natalie what in this is good for society when it's so it's went like I just perceive it as very damaging yeah okay all right one of the other things that I I've I've read so many reactions to this and there are a lot of positive reactions I I think a lot of them I think a lot of them are ridiculous and a lot of them are harmful I think I have one one positive reaction here that was just like an example of leg off fuck but like a lot of them a lot yeah a lot of the positive reactions I don't I don't get but just to like either I don't either I don't get or I have some objection to or I'm skeptical of but like the people that were hurt by this like so here here here's a here's a selection of like like pain people felt from this so this is emergency purple on reddit quote I'm pre everything in closeted and this video is legit making me consider saying mercy on Rhetta mirc why quote this video made me uncomfortable because in the end in the end Justine had the higher ground reddit user nine one eight zero five quote this was tough for me I'm socially transitioning and taking an HRT but it still made me feel like shit and fed into my dysphoria so no Chino Sodom made Joey Joe Joe which is a very very good good name on YouTube says as someone who's non-binary this really hit me hard as I feel like I will never really be accepted by society for who I am the point about faking it til you make it is goddamn hard to go with if society doesn't even recognize it [Music] they put recognize it and they put it in quotation marks so I'm assuming what they mean is like recognize recognize them the thing that they're faking well how do you I think essentially they're saying how do you fake it till you make it when the the it like there is no like like real like like non-binary like ideal that you can fake it til you make it okay you know okay I get you yeah streck's is everything on YouTube says I understand the politics of passing are uncomfortable and that Justine and tabby are fallible characters but it hurts to see a near defeatist point of view prioritized while issues of monetary access and non-binary folks are glossed over I disagree heartily with Justine and don't think she's right but the presentation makes it seem like Justine is ultimately right I feel like Natalie wanted that actually so we're not alone on that no no no at all os beyond YouTube says what is non by Neri realness since your question from a sad non-binary person how do we non-binary people express some personal truth while recognizing that our identity isn't nearly so important as how people perceive and understand us like basically if we're if we're taking Nathalie or justine seriously how how did what should non-binary people even do yeah Nathalie tried to kind of just sidestep that and her deleted threat by saying like oh this is just for this is just for for trans women yeah and non-binary people have to speak for themselves which and then she then the but surely pretty it's a pretty weak argument which like obviously it's fine to just to make a video and just speak for trans women the problem is that she's like doing a thing that like erases like or invalidates like other identities also then there's me like binary like trans woman like feel very feminine yeah you know but like not her type of feminine yeah and also like not tabby syphon feminine yeah like what do i what do I do there's like the only answer for me is like like changing culture and like trying to I don't know I don't know sterling xx on YouTube quote good video but not everyone wants to or is even able to be super high pretty femme we need to be allowed to be butch to have body hair we can't all just suck up to the power structures parts of this video made me dysphoric as a pre everything trans girl and some of the things just scene says make me terrified to transition because I know that I'm not capable of keeping up a super pretty appearance and I don't want to alan winters 13 on Twitter as an NB person this really hurt like a even if Justine is only 10% right I am shut out of the conversation there is no role for me here better off repressing and moving on is what I get from this at monster teeths on Twitter this is also very very good handle give me a cool cyber body 20 18 wonderful quote honestly kind of hurt by that new contra points vid for putting truce truce come BS on equal footing as NBA GNC and trans people who don't pass as what they identify the 41st element at tone NB twitter quote natalie has an audience that she has influence over and some of that audience can be incredibly hurt by what she does with her videos if it's about aesthetics she doesn't make it seem like Justine is wrong it's a dangerous aesthetic Raven song at melon o'clock on Twitter quote I think I may have missed the point of this video but it just kind of but it kind of just made me feel a bit hopeless at gin Kitty trash trans Kitty hell yeah I fucking love people like this yeah they're so fucking good quote I'm just hearing quote I'm just hearing don't transition unless you can pass oh sorry actually that was fucked up here that was at socialism like her trash trans kitty says I went through decades of horrible dysphoria self repression a train wreck of a marriage and more because I didn't know I'm not a man because I don't identify as one was a perfectly okay way to be damned which totally I'm glad that I'm glad that my brain allowed me to think about you know like allowed me to just like well like let me kind of be inside because I don't know what the fuck I would have done otherwise but you know and and it's like I don't know it like maybe Natalie just doesn't have that and like I that's I feel really bad for her yeah they're there probably is an element of like internalized stuff going on but with a following of twenty five hundred thousand yeah people you just got to be more aware of it I don't know totally which it sounds insensitive but I don't know like this video is problematic it's it should have been made no it should have been made it's like I you know it's it's tough too because like I I think she's an edge lord I think natalie is an edge alert I think she's like brilliant and like like very earnest and like there's a lot of good things about her but I also think she's mean and her tendency towards like being an edge lord is something I completely understand because I have been there like I have been that person especially when I was like 19 20 especially when I was alive in 1920 especially when I was like 19 or 20 years old like like I I had that like I had that I had that instinct as I got as an artist and like hey you know this you know so and it gets garbage and like now I'm like so like on the other side of that of like you know what it's just like never worth it I like hurt anybody even if it's even if you think it's smart satire yeah it's just never worth it and there's like a lot of stuff that like but like I wish I could have made things in like a you know you know in a bubble with like you know either a therapist or like friends who are like understanding and helping me and like mentoring me through you know like where was my trans mom yeah but like you know this kind of this kind of shit should not exist on YouTube it's just shouldn't it shouldn't and if it's what she's gonna make like she should quit YouTube for a while yeah you know she it's a she doesn't need to be cancelled she doesn't need to be like never doing anything again it doesn't need to she's just like if if she's getting I don't know like if she's feeling so much pain from all of this like pressure of people like looking at her watching her while she's transition tried transitioning than like for her for her like for her I hope I I sincerely hope she just like takes a break yeah you know like and she should also really listen to these comments and and the people who are right telling her why that this is problematic and why like the effect that it is having on like a lot of people that watch this video like it's not just you know like two or three here you know there's obviously a large amount of people who were very upset and hurt by this video and she needs to listen to these people and realize yeah you know and learn from it yeah I don't think she can right now I think I don't think she's in a place where she where she can yeah you know I mean I don't know I always feel like an ass like assuming things but like judging from stuff that she has said like and and it's not gonna surprise me if she makes another thread that's like an apology for the bad apology or something but she could also she go there's like there's like a you know already in like this weird social media world that we're living in like there's already like you know basically like people who were feminists like legit attempting to be like legit feminists totally in good faith who like basically well it's like that thing of like red pilling do you know about red pillion yeah yeah like like that shit happens like all sorts of good people and that could happen to her she could totally totally go down like and still have some sort of like some fake um lefty slightly Marxist view of like the economy those are actually those are those are probably best videos but and like have that but like totally have like a socially conservative like if you point on a bunch of other stuff and like I don't know I don't know that would that would be so fucking sad yeah and I don't know we'll see the last the last comment here was just like an example of like yeah that's why this fake debate thing is bad this is Wolfgang Romijn ro M I and II on YouTube this video is really interesting because there isn't a singular conclusion or moral that's established at the end both the characters tabi'in Justine argue different points of the argument tabby being tabby equals being yourself screw conformity justine equals conform to appease sis hetero people and fit in but then it simply ends afterwards there isn't a clear consensus given at the end it's left up to interpretation which is like yeah like this yeah it's a bummer it's accurate it's a bummer and it's a like it's a bummer or not because like Justine is like doing her thing it's like where Natalie says like yeah at the end actually Justine like concedes to tab Ian says tabby like you know you're fine do like I don't I don't think people really got that yeah she kind of just said okay you can wear your combat boots and yeah and that's pretty much what she said yeah and that's that's what she conceded on and like yeah yeah I don't know there was a bigger issue the fucking combat boots yeah yeah yeah yeah totally exactly oh all of this coming back to like like trans trans use and stuff and just like all of this like so-called philosophizing that she's sort of doing just it just means that there are like a zillion spaces and you know like a billion different like places and like ages or like types of people that like just can't that can't I can't have access to like their identity basically yeah and I I get like Google Alerts about like trans stuff like just do you know Google it's Google just like emails you like news from the past like week on like a topic so like I have one set up to email me anything about transgender like just like that's the key word and you know obviously there's a lot of ridiculous stuff but there's like a lot of pretty interesting stuff like you know like how bad like violence against trans women is getting how long have you been doing that getting those alerts your goodness I feel like I feel like um at least for me that would be like really scary and hard to deal with right totally I mean it's not it's not all like that like there's a lot of positive stuff too it's just like whatever is in the news so I just I only pay attention to the stuff that's like I want to know you know but like like okay like this this is both terrible and Blake I'm glad this is happening so like Hawaii Department of Health has been doing a whole bunch of like Studies on trans people including like including trans youth okay to like figure out like how like how at-risk people are and like transgender youth are at like a a two to three fold higher risk for depression anxiety suicidal ideation suicide attempts and self-harm and just like there's just like so many different things that like for like trans kids that's just like so so like so much worse and it's like clear in like statistics and then also it you know it shows stuff like like family rejection during adolescence is related to increased likelihood of mental health and substance abuse problems so like this whole like philosophizing thing like completely like misses the point on like there's nothing that we can do for these kids except for making the culture better yeah like we can't take them away from their families we can't like there's nothing we can't like forcibly like make their parents I don't think we can I don't think we can force maybe maybe that's like first seems like we're seeing their parents to allow their child to like you know dude gender affirming hormone therapy etc yeah like these kids don't have that many options and like any any any sound fill up philosophy around this has to like include a way for these children to be okay yeah and like the only the only reasonable thing for that especially especially right now is just like changing the culture so their families won't reject them and their peers won't reject them it's like you know that's it that's like that's like the only that's the only way yeah my my my favorite philosopher because he like as actively like really helps the way I think about my life is Camus and Camus has a book called the myth of Sisyphus where like the the premise of it like the starting of it is is sort of like talking about I think the first line is something to the effect of like the like the only important or like the the primary or like the the most important philosophical question is like the question of suicide and like this is a guy writing after world war two so it's just it's basically like looking at the world and mean like everything's fucking meaningless there's there's no answers for me anywhere the universe is like there's no God that I can ask the universe has no answers for me like life is absurd because like I feel like I need an answer but nothing can give me an answer and like nihilists at that time we're basically advocating like everything is terrible we shouldn't be alive and like existentialists were saying like you can create your own meaning in in your life and Kemeny was basically saying like you can't create your own meaning but it's still worth living and like this like philosophical like rejection of suicide like is something that like throughout my life has like been helpful for me when i'm feeling like dying you know so it i feel like that assertion that like the most important philosophical question is the question of suicide the question of whether I should stay alive or not like if if trans theory like doesn't also take that into account because we are so at risk oh yeah like then the philosophy is not sound like it can't be sound if it doesn't take that question into account yeah it's very frustrating yeah it's like yeah oh yeah no I'm good I'm just like I'm just like here yeah I could be weeping I should be reaping fuckin like yeah I just I just I wanna I like I wish I could like wipe like like Natalie like talk to me like why like please like you know if if if if you're holy holy fuck like if I made a video and like I was getting comments that people were like saying like this is like legit making me think about repressing yeah I wouldn't know what to do with myself cuz I'm I know that that was not her intention so like yeah she's probably going through I don't know I don't know I don't know I don't know how to I don't know how to think about that because like why why is the video still up yeah um you know it's not like she's it's it's not like she's actively saying like non-binary people don't exist and are invalid it's like it feels sort of like the like the liberal thing of like being like I'm colorblind that's great you know yeah like it feels like on that level of like I have correctly thought through this problem and I know how to solve it I just don't see color anymore yeah like you know it feels it feels like that and it's just dang it dang it right why why are people like that why do we do this also the Internet is because pain yeah cuz pain Danny that is fucked up yeah I'm I am pretty toast my brains pretty pretty much now yeah I know Sam is there is there anything about anything any closing remarks on on gender I would just like to say that your existing as a trans woman is fucking powerful in itself and you I mean just that and and I look up to you a lot yeah why not yeah and like something else all right well thank you you are a big sweetie and I'm blessed to have you in my life really truly and and so I'm so happy that we can both be like yeah August 3rd both of us started yeah it's really cool and I'm glad we actually like took a picture yeah fuck yeah fuck yeah so that I remember to do that can I be that cannot be the album art for for this episode oh yeah that's perfect that's gonna be so good alright maybe Chris thank you for being on prairie grass Thank You Nora the janitor [Music] bow-bow what the bow bow yeah thanks for listening make sure you check out patreon.com/trashparty you got it drink up that hot garbage juice slurping slurp it all up over at patreon.com slash trash party and remember kids you got to be intolerant of intolerance do not tolerate being tolerance and remember to eat your vegetables and your greens steamed those plants drink the juice patreon.com slash [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music]