#49 Jill Zimmerman

Zooming out, zooming out, zooming out. Everything ends.
— Jill


This episode was recorded in Minot, ND during the weekend of Why Not Fest 8 in 2017.

You can find Jill Zimmerman on her website and on Spotify.

Hey well here's a computer-generated transcript of this episode! It's pretty terrible, sorry!

00:00:00 So thank you for coming. Thanks for having me and thanks for uh, being. Yeah, thank you for being patient. While I was. I'm like, this is, I'm, I'm trying to like not, you know, it's a recording. Stuff like this is weird because it's like I don't know exactly when it's gonna come out, you know what I mean? And like, uh, I'm trying to like, be not like be talking too much about like in, you know, in the moment of being like, oh my God, just for a second, please do shit. My brain needed like a reset. No, I can understand. Wow. Like I've been in this room talking to people since 11 and like just whoa. My Diet is just a fucking joke too. Just like cliff bar came into the rotation. I've been eating as cliff bars, a tortilla chips and cool cold beans describing my actual life. 

00:01:02 Most of us can relate to that, but I really sustained. Oh, also a sun butter over eat some butter. Oh, that's expensive. I know. But there's something about peanut butter that makes me sick. Like, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not like allergic to it, but there was like something like, it makes me feel like, yeah, so I just eat sun butter, like almost on a daily basis, just like straight up, like I'll just take a spoon of it. High Magnesium I think. Oh Nice. But I have no. Um, I have no, I have no utensils with me, so I've just been eating it with my finger. That is a whole new level. It's just like Winnie the Pooh scope that has 100 percent winnie the Pooh and uh, I took some head drugs for my, uh, my head, my headache and a term for that and uh, and yeah, I'm just trying to, trying to come down, you know what I mean? I have been in that place so it's sorta like, um, like performing in front of like an audience, like the, I mean, you get nerves, right? For sure. Um, I get horrible hers, like, like I get to this point where my hands start shaking and I can't feel them. Oh my gosh. Yeah. And a podcasting like it's Kinda like that. Like I could feel my hands, but like that's good stuff that's useful. 

00:02:35 I'm thinking really hard about whether or not I can feel my hands right now. Yeah, I can. Yeah, we're good. Oh my gosh. Cool. Well, how's, why not been for you so far? Have you been chilling or what have you been doing the last two hours were you just said you were exploring the area? I don't know what that means. Take a guess at what that means and then I'll tell you the exact embarrassing truth if you know this area. What do we have around us right now? Did you go shopping? No. Okay. I don't know. Okay. I'll just tell you because it was like I get three guesses. You can keep you just like walked around, kind of know. Sadly, first I went to the Walmart to get a sandwich and the whole time is going to with shopping and sandwiched shopping. Okay. Fair enough. And um, and then I went and just did an empty lot and played guitar. I tried to be in conspicuous, but some people pulled over. They were really nice. They invited me to come practice on their porch, but I thought that'd be a little too imposing. So I stayed where I was and I brought me food. They came back with a whole plate of food because that's the North Dakota way I think what I've been told. Feed strangers. 

00:03:54 So that's seven days. The last two hours. You were you saying that it was embarrassing at first that I just my first stop. Like, let me go explore the wall. Well, you know, you got to get a sandwich. I've been craving a sandwich for my. Just throw off the cliff bar rhythm. I know, right. Were you, were you practicing? Like for. When do you play? I play at night. I'm like, what are you playing for hours? Yeah. Or something. Yeah. Yeah. I'm a little nervous because I want to play a bunch of new songs, but obviously nobody here is going to know whether they're new or old, but to me they're new so it's scary to debut something so I'm just like a little nervous about that, but we'll see how it goes. So that's why I was practicing in the field, in a field, in a field that I know. Okay. Is it a field or isn't an empty lot? If it's just a big expanse of grass, what would you call that? Um, 

00:05:02 that's a really good question. I don't, I don't know. Did it seem like it would have future buildings on it? Did it seem like I'm ready to be built on for either residential or. Yeah, so it's probably empty empty lot. That's less romantic than I was practicing in a field where they're wild flowers. They were missiles, missiles, and aunts. So teeming with wildlife. Nice. This is painting a very like, vibrant picture of like your afternoon for me walking through wet gravel and missiles in Walmart's. Yeah. So thrilling all around getting hassled by some really nice people who still kind of wanted to abduct, you know, I'm always on the watch for that kind of behavior and I didn't get that five. So that's every person I encountered. Do they look like they will snatch me away? I didn't get that vibe from you. So feel safe in this hotel room. Nice. Thank God. Thank God. Sometimes I wonder if I have the abductor vibe. No. 

00:06:13 Yep. Nope. I'm just gonna. I'm not going to object. Uh, I'm not gonna abducted. Abducted you. I'm just going to steal your, your vocal soul. 

00:06:21 Oh yeah. I feel like that's a, that's partial plot of a Disney movie. I think so. It's not like little mermaid doesn't, doesn't that happen in Little Mermaid? I have no idea. That's probably good. Okay. No idea. Somebody vocal solo get stolen anyways. I mean that's what we're doing. Yes. It's like a photograph. It's true. It's your voice now my hands are numb. Oh my gosh. I'm a cool. Yeah. Thrilling, thrilling. 

00:07:04 Good. 

00:07:07 I warned you. Wouldn't be the worst interview effort. 

00:07:12 So I, I was trying to decide whether I was going to bring that up or not because I think, I think uh, yeah, so I just, I just was seeing if you would but because I didn't want to put you on the spot, but I think it's fascinating that um, and so people have no idea what we were talking about. Can, can you, can you explain that? So you, you, I emailed you and I'm like, come on my podcast and you're like, oh that sounds cool, but I'm, I'm

00:07:46 very boring. I think the phrasing to use. So why, why? What makes you very boring? I don't know. I think you have to because I usually just even in talking to anybody, if it's not recorded I'll just like try to skim through the conversation as best as I can and not go because either I want to go like very deep with somebody or I just don't want to talk. And so now I have to instantly go very deep to make this conversation worthwhile or I'm going to talk about the difference between fields and empty lot. You know, it's worth goofing around a little bit. Get into it. Um, do you enjoy going deep or should or do you usually do? I don't. I don't know. Do you? Yeah, absolutely. That's why I do this. I mentioned so I like to have small talk and my podcast for an hour. Yeah. No, that's great. Yeah, I don't know. I guess so point of the stories I'd probably, my default would be boring because I would be way too nervous to say anything besides very generic statements. Nice. Okay. Are you nervous? Kind of, yeah. Me Too. 

00:08:56 I've always been nervous. I've been nervous since I woke up. Yeah. So nervous the whole month. Yup. Yup. Yup. Totally. I've been trying to do this thing where I just deal with that feeling. Oh, that was Mike, who's a beautiful guitar right now? 

00:09:17 No. Um, yeah, where I, I've been shown to be very conscious of like my own negative feelings of anxiousness or sure, just negativity and I just been doing this like what I envisioned is just zooming out of my own life and taking a way, wider perspective and that's been helping me just doing that like once an hour and be like, anything that's going to go wrong, it's not going to be really be that big of a deal. So just take every experience has whatever it is in the moment. And so I've been working on that a lot actually, so this is a good practice for me. Interesting. 

00:09:50 All. What do you think is going to go wrong? Right now? I'm just gonna say stupid stuff for 45 minutes or I'm going to knock something over. Or your things. What are you worried about? Knocking over. There's all kinds of mattresses leaning against walls in here. There's fancy microphones. You're not going to, you're not going to damage the microphones. Um, I mean if you still, if you spilled that a water like we would actually, honestly we would be fine because the only thing that I would need to like quickly move is like that actually the recorder over there, because these are, these are cheap. These don't matter. I'm so physically, I think you're, I think you're really. I think it really pretty safe right now. Okay. Um, what, uh, what else you're nervous about? Oh, saying same dumping, big dumb idiot that. 

00:10:45 So I think this is fascinating because I think it says a lot about you. The fact that like I got that email when you're like, I'm going to be real boring. And like, um, I immediately like, oh, chill is insecure. You nailed it. No. And like, that's great. I'm insecure. I think most people are honest with themselves. I think there's a lot of pieces of shit that are not insecurity. That's true. Most of the, the thing that, the thing about that is most of those people are bad people. Yeah. I mean I guess in my anecdotal experience, I would agree with that. Like if you're, if you're not like a little bit insecure and like self aware, like you can be a real like that can make a person like a real vague just garbage. Yeah. So like the fact that you're insecure, it's like good. 

00:11:40 It's like a positive thing and it's like I, you know, I mean we already had like this um, emotional basis of insecurity, which is a pretty deep thing before you even walked in this room, set it up to view this like a, I did that. Yeah. You did that. Do you do that often? I'm sure that's another thing I'm trying to stop doing or just like projecting that out ahead of time by completely. I mean, I'm glad you did because some people would just bury it and then like they will, they will be sitting here with me and I would be like, there's something wrong, but I'm not sure what kind of pull it out. Yeah, 

00:12:24 I dunno. I've just. Yeah, I think I don't know what. I think I had a thought but it got away

00:12:38 here. I'll, I'll tell. I'll tell you one other thing that, just, that that'll make you less. Maybe nervous in general. It's just that like whenever we have pauses like that, like I edit this podcast anytime. Anytime. Yeah. It was a dramatic pause for emphasis. So keep that one in there. Okay. No, that's fine. Yeah, no, I'll leave this part. But uh, uh, you know, I mean if you need to like

00:13:07 take a second to think about a thing, you can do that. Alright. Thank you for that. Yeah. Yeah. 

00:13:15 I take, I take long as positive. Like I edit myself so I have like an extra special self loathing for my own, like a boring this, you know what I mean? No. 

00:13:32 Well yeah. I guess that's the thing, I can talk about what you just did like the permission to. That's a, that's a weird thing. I've been dealing with two and in many ways of like shifting perspective of I've just have other people like in a weird way give me permission to do things that they. Nobody has to give you permission to do it, but it's almost like you need somebody to point it out before you can actually take ownership of it yourself. I'm like, just even in music, I've been working with a new producer who is really, really great at not only the music aspects of it, but like the mental aspects. He'll be like, why are you working so hard on other people's projects are like, what do you actually want? And he's helping me. Like you can you have permission to put your own goals first? 

00:14:22 You don't have to like say yes. Every project it comes down the line. So that kind of thing. I was just like, you're an, you're an obliger. Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely. Wow. And just, yeah, having permission to do actually what you want. It's just a weird thing to think about like, well Duh, you can do what you want, but until somebody points it out to you for me, I should just say to me it was not obvious. Oh Huh. Huh? What are what you're. You're doing a bunch of things you don't want to. Well I guess that's a little harsh, but I mean just like just can be harsh. No, it's all great things, but it's just a matter of everybody has a finite amount of time, so that's the thing I like just being realizing you can take some of that time for yourself. 

00:15:08 You don't have to give it all away and that's been a big change. Like I analyze things more now, like every opportunity that comes or even just choices like does this move me in the direction I want to go or is this like a little side detour that I don't really need to do right now? And just actually taking the time to think about things in that in that way has been a big change lately. That's a new thing. Yeah. Me, can you give me an example of like a situation? I don't know. Yeah, I'm going to try to think of one, but I would, that's not going to insult people because these are all wonderful people. Yeah, I'm gonna. Think about that. Burned some bridges. Well, yeah. Okay. I don't know if I have any. Can you, um, can you redact names? Well, hopefully that I'm trying to think of. That was a weird path for me to go down and then like take out all the juicy details. Think about that. Let me try. Is completely hypothetical. Um, anyone better example or just even in like how I structure my day even like

00:16:25 this one's, if I answer this honestly, it'll get me no, just like any given moment like should I have right now or could I be doing something to like further my creative goals and nobody's going to know the difference and sometimes I'll be doing stuff to further my career goals and yeah, just owning up to that and be like, okay, but yeah, this is my choice of my time and I only get this time for a finite amount of time. So I have to be deliberate and like I think I've only just recently um, developed the fear of death. So that's part of it. I love to talk about. What do you imagine that. I think it probably comes up. So that's a good one though. That's a good one. So you're starting to feel the scarcity of time. Yeah, exactly. There you go. Put 20 minutes of rambling into one. Nice sentence for me. Yeah. It's actually that, that actually is a way better for weight. Not really. Death is the scarcity of time. That's absolutely it. I'm gonna Start. I'm gonna. Use that. Thank you. 

00:17:39 Also because I feel like this is the only thing I hate and I'm trying not to. I'm trying to figure out ways to not feel this way, that just like time is running out of like if I want to. A lot of things depend on being young and pretty and that I hate that. What things depends on the fake. Just getting gigs and getting a step. Like if I. Okay, I'm not. If I wait until I'm like 40 and try to like establish a like music careers or get a new career path is going to be way harder. Yeah. And I hate it. That's the truth. Yeah. I hate that but. And I'm combating. I'm just trying to battle it out like in my head of. Do you believe that's true or not? I don't know. I'm not explaining myself very well, but scarcity of time, it's all on that same topic of like I have no time. I have to make a move now and do what I want to do. I don't like the way that now I'm squirming in the chair. I should have taken a solid cherry because now I'm doing the rotating on this officer. 

00:18:55 What was my point? I had a good point that came out in a very clunky man are there and the point is yes. Scarcity of time terrifies me. Your, your. 

00:19:07 I'm also fascinated by this whole like

00:19:10 you're scared of getting older and

00:19:15 quote unquote not being as pretty. 

00:19:18 Oh Gosh. That's. Oh, I really want to put it. I just. 

00:19:23 So are you thinking in terms of like the like music stuff when you're saying that or are you thinking. Are you thinking kind of in general? 

00:19:32 Oh, see now this is. I don't think any of this because it makes it sound like I'm beautiful was I can do what I want and it's not at all. I don't mean I don't even think that in any way. So I guess I'm just saying like, you have a lot of perks when you're young that I think go away when you get old and I'm scared of that and I hate that that's the case and I don't think it's fair. I think it's dumb, but I think it's the way things work right now that scares me. Yeah, I think that's super real. Yeah. Like, or it's not that. Not that you would lose respect, but you have like a limited time to establish it. I don't know. I just need to live more, figure it out. 

00:20:17 Oh my goodness. Are you, are you thinking about music? Because like, I mean this is like, I think about this a lot, like there's a certain

00:20:27 um, music will like

00:20:33 use people's both like personalities and the way that they look to sell the music. You know what I mean? 

00:20:43 Yeah. I need to shift this because now I just feel really stupid about everything I said because it came out. Anybody here is going to be like, what is your problem? It's going to end. I can insult every person I know in one interview. This is good. I don't know. I don't know. Hopefully people. Okay. Focus. I don't know. I don't think any of that's insulting. I think that's true. 

00:21:16 Yeah. 

00:21:18 Like that seems like an like an like honestly, like a huge struggle. Like yeah, I think yeah, 

00:21:26 or maybe it all ties into just how do you. Maybe more than all of that nonsense I just splattered out is just how do you. What's the balance between like gaining respect of other people and how much that matters at all. Like it's easy. It'd be like I don't care what anybody thinks, but everybody does. If they're like living in a society to some extent care what other people think of them, but I think from everything instead I'm realizing now I'm kind of in a balancing point of like being true to exactly myself and trying to earn respect from other people and it was just like interesting balancing point of. Yeah, totally. When to give and take I guess. There we go. That's what I meant by all that. Yeah. This is awesome. I love this. Okay. You need to tell a story now to get us back on track so I can have something to go off of. Oh, you want a story for me? Any kind of comment that will get us back on track back on track and that's on any, any kind of track it all. 

00:22:30 Um, 

00:22:34 where'd you grow up? Mostly? Mostly I would call my hometown Becker, Minnesota Becker? Yeah. Whereas Central Minnesota. It's a smallish town. I had like 160 kids in my graduating class. Nice. So pretty rural? Yeah, kind of. I guess. So. Okay. Um, were you, were you farming? No, I have one generation removed from the farms and I've always felt kind of a weird longing. Like I think I would actually probably not survive. I'm not a hard worker in that aspect and I don't think I could handle my family does. They're an extremely hard working, extremely hard working people. But all that being said, I kind of have a longing like when I see like my cousins or my grandparents and everybody that's still in that life, it just seems, I don't know, very respectful to me and I just said kind of that I'm not connected to it I guess. But yeah. So anyways, not a farmer, but deep respect for farmers were um, whereas becker like central Minnesota is like, is Minneapolis Central Minnesota and I guess, I mean kind of, I guess it's like an hour away from. It's an hour north of the city. So Nice. Oh, okay. Okay, cool. Yeah, out there. Um, 

00:24:06 yeah, I've got, I sing a lot about hometowns are going away from home and coming back home. Oh, I know it's a common thing people sing about, but. 

00:24:16 So I guess all those songs are about that town and we have this giant interested in power plant right across the street from right across the street, directly across the highway from our town. Oh, okay. And I've always like, I sing about that thing sometimes because I don't know, I mean they say it's clean. Whatever's coming out the top, just steam, but can that possibly be true? Is there has to be health effects that come from having a giant coal power plant, like a mile from your elementary school, right? Yeah, it seems. I don't know. Do you you have asthma? I don't know. So maybe there isn't. What am I talking about? Oh my gosh. I seriously am gonna insult every single. No, you're not a person that I've ever met in my life as well. I would just land it all down. But you, you're, you're fine. 

00:25:10 Let's never air. I need to just leave. No, no. Okay. Focus small town. Yeah, I was home. I'm from a town. What did, what did you do growing up there and so a set in the backyard and played music for real. A. Yep. Why? How did you do your parents musical? Nope, but they're very supportive. They're very supportive. Uh, disciplines. Yeah. No, I had paid my sister with me and she hated it so much. She actually did that. I don't know. I think it skipped a generation. Like the farming family is all very extremely musical and like have instruments passed down from 1500 so and then just like skipped over. So you don't like some of your first experiences with like with music and stuff you were like your grandparents and stuff. There's pictures of me like on my grandma's piano as like a toddler just like arms outstretched about to plunge into piano. So probably I guess when did, when did you actually start playing piano or guitar or piano? When I was eight years old and so I started taking the formal lessons which I hated instantly and quit as soon as they let me. But I kept playing. I've preferred to just listen to the radio and play by ear. So that's what I ended up doing. And I did the similar with guitar, like I just, I don't do well in a lesson setting I guess. So

00:26:49 I feel like that's kind of like a trend with like any musician or artist that is like, that ends up becoming like a song writer or a writer of some sort. They usually will like, not like, not like to go though like formulaic route, just like listening to stuff and like picking it out or creating things. Yeah. Huh. So, but you've been playing piano and guitar and singing and stuff too since you were like really young? I guess so yeah. Were you singing when you were that little? 

00:27:26 Yeah. I mean not in any kind of public thing, but I remember just standing in front of the mirror like any little kid. Didn't belting it out? Yeah. I don't know. Always singing. Sometimes I accidentally sing when I think I'm alone and I'm not alone and that's always embarrassing. Yeah, pretty much. 

00:27:46 I like to sing. I, I like bike commute a lot of days in Minneapolis we have like a bike share thing that I am super dorky thing, like most people make fun of it, but I'm a huge fan of this bike share program so I'll be like biking down the road, just belting out songs and then I'll realize like five minutes into it there was somebody who directly behind me, biking, mortifying. But it happens like on a daily basis. So it's every single day. Yeah, I mean it's little minor ones, but you get used to it I guess. And then you hopefully never see him again. 

00:28:18 That's the goal. Yes. That's the nice thing about cities. Yeah. Yeah. That actually is true. I am from bismark and my, especially like as I'm getting older and like collecting all of these memories, it's end like being not being able to like go somewhere without like knowing people. It's kind of overwhelming. Especially the memory is just like walking around and like being like, oh yeah, like I hung out in that park with my girlfriend who's dead now or like I used to go eat a bread at that place and it's just like, you know, fucking memories. It's overwhelming. And so like for sure the uh, I'm glad you can completely get away from those people who are making you feel mortified. Oh my gosh, I'm that way though too is singing like it's fucking terrifying for like a, if it's performance it's like it's okay because then it's like on my terms, but like when someone like it was like, hey, heard you sing in earlier

00:29:42 and like what? No, don't tell me that. Don't tell I shouldn't. Why is that? Like why

00:29:50 I've thought about this a lot because I studied vocal music for like a year and then dropped out of college for the second time and uh, something about studying vocal music made me even more terrified of my voice and stuff. Yeah. And, and I thought a lot about like, because I mean most of the people, not all of them, but like a lot of people that were like in my class or whatever, like almost everyone gets shy when, when it's like, okay, you sing, sing this part. Yeah. We're like saying this whatever. And honestly I think there's something taboo about it. 

00:30:34 Yeah. Why? Like what the heck? Like nobody's born with the shame of their singing voice. Are they or are we? 

00:30:43 I don't think little kids are shamed. I think some of it is just like we have been programmed to like be embarrassed of our emotions. That's true. And like music is so connected to like our emotions and um, I don't know. I guess growing up in rural Minnesota you have the same thing, but like we're just supposed to like shut up and keep everything inside and not express ourselves and not be like different. That's true. 

00:31:26 I can relate to that. Yeah. Yeah. I think about that a lot. Which one is like, I'm just don't be, I feel like a framing part of my growing up and this is nothing against anything really. It's just how I have something I've thought about is, was framed around don't draw attention to yourself and yeah. And, 

00:31:52 and don't be loud. Like they'll see things. It's like ingrained in me. And then like even like I remember when I was little, the only color of nail Polish I was allowed to wear. It was like something, it looked natural, like don't put on bright green. That's unnatural. It would draw attention to you or like don't I got into. And then of course it wouldn't even when that happens and you're, you have a different kind of personality, it comes out one way or another assignment. I went through like a petty example, but I went through a phase where like I would only wear mismatched socks just because it annoyed my parents so much. They're like, why would you do that? That is drawing attention to yourself. But like I feel like anything like that it's going to come up eventually and then you become a musician. But I don't know. But yeah, I guess I can relate to that. I think that's, it all ties

00:32:40 back into like having permission to do what you want kind of thing. Right? Because I just grew up just be like, just go with the flow. 

00:32:49 I don't know anybody, don't let anybody know you're here. 

00:32:51 Here. I also like, I can't help but think that like some of that too is like people, uh, I mean from what you're describing, like painting your nails green or being loud or lake. I'm being perceived as like taking up too much space with your sound or whatever. Like, I can't help but think that there's a certain misogynist thing going on there could very well be. I don't know how to speak intelligently. That is because I don't, I don't either. So you know, but like, you know, uh, are like semi puritanical lake, Midwest culture is like we, we like force women into being in like a certain way. 

00:33:52 Wow. We're tying it all back to my fear of getting ugly. I was trying to get away from that now. But yeah. Um, I think, well it's connected to that is if it is and I'm trying to live outside of something that you can't really escape. I feel like I've just like, you can't ignore these things that are in place, but at the same time keep striving to, to live outside of them. I don't know. Yeah, 

00:34:22 look, honestly, like, that is just such a, like, like a raw and vulnerable, like incredibly emotional thing. I don't know. You don't, you shouldn't be embarrassed. So it's not like it's not your fault, you know what I mean? Are you going to make me cry or do you want to. Do you want me to try? I would love to make you cry. 

00:34:44 Will you make me cry? Sometimes I just cry over this. I mean this one, 

00:34:47 this is stupid but this is like the heaviest thing I talked about with anybody yet. And it's, it's amazing. I'm like proud of you right now. Oh thank you. It's like it's real and it's even worse because like, like, and chill like I hardly know, you know, very presumptuous and a lot of ways and it kind of makes me feel like an asshole. But like, like it's very obvious to me that like there's, there's like some midwestern misogyny that's been placed on you that's still like hurting you. Like the fact that you can like, like you were a young and objectively beautiful, you know, and like you the fact that have these feelings surrounding that and then like those feelings are wrapped up in like all of these different societal things. And then even worse on top of that, like you don't feel like you can talk about it because it's somehow like not real or less than, or like I'm not to be taken seriously or like just like, like somehow invalid. Like to me all of that is just like, that very much seems like a, like somebody really a drilled some massage it, you, I mean again, like I feel like I'm being presumptuous in like maybe like too much and like so I'm sorry and you can tell me to shut up. But it's, it's real, you know? 

00:36:37 Yeah. It's a perspective that I haven't really. 

00:36:42 I guess I don't know, this isn't, this is an interesting perspective for me to think about through that Lens. Like, cause like you okay. Like because there's, there's all of that but also like you write beautiful songs. Like you write beautiful songs that are really interesting and like moving, you know, and like um, like people should take you seriously in respect to you for that. Like immediately, you know, there shouldn't be any, any, like, like you are going to get old and beautiful and if people don't respect you, fuck them. 

00:37:25 There we go. Oh my gosh. See it. And now I want to like, because even if I get old and ugly, you're not going to get old and ugly. If I do, I want to be okay with that. Like what? What does it have to do with my, like anybody is worth. That's the thing. That's why I felt weird about how that came across when I said that because I'm like, I'm not seeing that. That's what I'm not saying. That's what I think matters. Not exactly expressing. 

00:37:51 No, that makes sense though. I mean like, uh, like you, you have been told that that matters. Yeah. You know? Yeah, for sure. 

00:38:13 Yeah. We definitely dove in here now. This is good. I tried to make you cry. I don't think it works. I know it. We got dangerously close there and I didn't want to completely lose it when. Okay. Here, here's, I'm going to just start throwing them back at you. So you can tell me if this is too much. When's the last time you cried? 

00:38:33 Did you cry today? Uh, no. I, I'm forcing myself to not cry yesterday. Oh yeah. That's tough. Reading poems in front of an audience. So your own poems, was that part of your set before? Yeah. So yesterday I played on the Internet, um, all of a sudden do the poems. Okay, good. Because it was, um, were, they weren't really mine. There was one, it was a series of eight like poems and excerpts, so things that just, that I've been thinking about life is like kind of just sucked for like the last year or at least a lot of good things have happened, but there have been just so many ships things like in, in my life and just in the world, you know. Yeah, it's been horrible. And like, um, I've just been kind of collecting words that are, have been meaningful to me in some way. And um, and so I, I've had this, you know, three sheets of, of these, these poems and read them before, before I play it, the like trump machine synthesizer stuff. And talked a little bit and um, yeah, I uh, I've actually been reading them off and on for like a month or two, like practicing that crying. Oh, when you did it. Uh, I mean my voice cracked a lot but I didn't have tears and uh, and I had to wear sunglasses while I was reading because a, I didn't want anybody to see, see my eyes. 

00:40:32 Okay. There's the question, why did you not want to cry? Just because you want to be able to get through the performance or you just didn't want somebody to see you crying. Okay. So, um, I think it's kind of similar in some of these ways of like, I mean, like not wanting to express too much emotion. Like I, I don't even feel that here at like a place like where I should feel this is about as safe as I feel with other people, you know. But there's something I'm like, self aggrandizing. It seems like, you know, like, it shouldn't, it shouldn't be, but it should be like, I guess, uh, you know, um, no, I mean I had this thought even while I was reading it, like have like a, uh, like I try not to look at people while I was reading it because I didn't want to see how they were judging me and I didn't want to see like the um, you know, like I glanced up once and now I have this, this picture of one person who I am, I've actually no what he was actually thinking but, but, but in my mind, like what I'm projecting that he was thinking was like, um, this is stupid that this person is, um, 

00:41:47 reading these sad things and no voice cracking and [inaudible] yeah. I'm embarrassed by myself constantly. Yeah. Really? Oh yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think I'm pretty terrible. Usually that's, that's too bad. What do you do that to ourselves? I don't know because we're, because we're told to because we're not because we don't fit in, but yeah. Wow. And it's just like this over and over again, like saying of like, it just gets reinforced and then we get older and we realized that it's fucking stupid. But it takes forever to break it. Yeah. You know? Yeah. What are some things you do to get beyond that feeling or have you not have been embarrassed by myself or with Katie? Myself. Yeah. Do you have any tactics that you try, you just let it happen? I'm trying to think of like a good example of that. Um, 

00:43:08 sometimes it's just a matter of like trying to get better at compartmentalizing and like I'll have like a, like I do this, I do this goofy thing where I'm like, I use Google calendar all the time and there are certain things that like, I want to get more like ingrained in my, in my psyche. I'm like not putting too much pressure on myself or to get better at compartmentalizing or to like, you know, like believe in myself in some way or another and like, so, uh, I don't have one for every day, but like most days I have. And it'll repeat this like, like every Monday it'll have the same like little reminder come up. So when I wake up in the morning, like I look at my phone and like I get this little pat on the back from my self in the past. Um, and yeah, but one of those is compartmentalizing and like I'm just being like, you know, because it's, it's pretty difficult for me to think in terms of like

00:44:22 completely breaking the habit of like being self. Then to the point of like, I think if I tried to do that it could be more destructive. Really? Yeah. Like if I was just like, I'm going to look at my self loathing straight in the face and I'm going to say I'm fuck you get out of here because I don't think it would've worked. And then I think I would feel even worse. Well that's interesting, but if I can just kind of put it over here and just keep doing the thing that I want to keep doing, like mean like podcasting, you know, like a, 

00:44:57 it's so

00:44:59 it can be so heavy and vulnerable and weird or all sorts of different things and like um, I'm not always confident about that, you know, so, but I try to just not, not caring fake Tomeka

00:45:18 yeah. Do you think like having, like obviously the podcast is a thing that you're pretty publicly, like not that you have to keep going forever. There were, once you start it you have an expectation that you're going to stick to doing it. And didn't you also over. I hopefully am not screen. Is that mixing this up with somebody else but do a thing once where you like, was it like a song every single day or a song every week or something? Did you have a project like that at one point where you came up with something like, 

00:45:48 yeah, you might be thinking of somebody. I mean I, uh, oh, like a while ago though, are you? Well, not as, no. So I put something new out every week. I put out new music every week, but not songs. 

00:46:01 Are you still doing that? Yeah. Oh Gosh. Well anyways, the thing like where you. Do you think that helps of like having like an expectation that you're going to keep doing it even if you like for me, if, if I don't publicly say like I'm going to do these shows and I'm going to do to data, like I will sabotage myself and cancel it and get out of it somehow the first time something comes up that makes me uncomfortable. But if I have, like I already said this is the expectation, like I put it out, it's a pattern, I'm going to do it, then I'll have a better chance of falling. I don't know. Totally. Self sabotage is a crazy thing. 

00:46:44 I mean that's, I mean think that seems like a good tactic. Like, you know, because you're, you're, you were talking about being an obliging earlier and like if there's something you know you want to do, but like you might back out of it if you get it like cold feet about it, you know, uh, like telling other people to keep you. So it keeps you accountable. I mean that seems good. I don't know, but yeah. And I don't like self loathing and all of that shit. I don't, I have no idea. I don't know. Yeah, I'm trying to, I'm trying to get better about, you know, patting myself on the back and telling myself it's. But, you know, I dunno. Yeah, I dunno. Do you have a thought or do you have more questions? 

00:47:43 Yeah, I don't know if that is going to come out and coherently in anyway. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Um, 

00:47:53 okay. So let's, let's go back. Let's go back to Minnesota and I like, I mean I like figuring out Kinda know where people come from and stuff. Yeah. Um, so you were in this small town like all the way through high school? 

00:48:09 Yup, Yup. From like age 10 through high school age 10 through high school. You moved there when you were doing? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. I was 10 before that. We just kind of hopped around. I was born in Illinois and he hopped around. I mean not like, not like a military family or something where you're every six month, but like, yeah, we just, my parents' jobs change. So we moved around. Okay, nice. That was a very weird way of answering that one. I could have just said yes. We moved to, there was the answer to that question. Oh my gosh. Okay. Yes. Lived in that town and then moved to uh, went to college and build out of the first college, right? 

00:48:55 We, yeah. Okay. We're going to get there. What was, what was high school and Shit like? 

00:49:01 Oh, I was very, very quiet and okay. And then like I think my first song ever in front of you, like the high school talent show in junior year and I was like, the first time anybody ever heard me sing I think or, and then that was my thing. I was like the girl that write songs, I got one glory year of that in high school when I decided to try because it was kind of the same thing, like finite amount of time, like, well, you're only here one more year if it crashes and Burns, whatever. It's. I finally decided to just try. 

00:49:31 Did it feel good? It did. Yeah. Like people recognizing the, uh, this important thing in you for what it is. 

00:49:38 You got over the mismatch socks stage and got into the music stage. It was good. Nice. Better, more interesting way to express that feeling, I guess. And wearing mismatched socks. 

00:49:51 You mentioned that Ms Dot dot. Oh my God, I can't even say that word. It's a hard one to say miss matched socks. That's a pretty good thing to. Totally fine. Yeah. I guess it just didn't get to the heart of what I was feeling. It wasn't really. Yeah. There's only so much you can express through socks. Yes. Yes. Although nowadays you can really, you can say a lot. Do. You can, you can. That's true. Um, what like, okay. Uh, what kind of, like, what kind of stuff did you do in high school? Like for me, I like played music, played in bands, all my friends liked to drink and do drugs and I didn't, so I got kind of alienated but would hang out with them sometimes and occasionally I get drunk and throw up. Yeah. But mostly just felt alienated. But. So what was, what was high school like for, for you? Like, 

00:50:54 oh, I was 100 percent a goody two shoes. None of that happened but I didn't ever see it happen. Do you have any regrets about that in high school? No, not really. I don't have any regrets in that realm of like not being wild and crazy. Would you ever just like

00:51:13 hmm. 

00:51:13 Uh, like go driving late at night and do weird shit. 

00:51:20 Um, 

00:51:22 framing it in the frame that I just gave you that I was, my friends and I were a goody two shoes. Our definition of that would be like putting traffic cones on the driveway of our favorite teachers. Slightly too close together that they'd have to get out of the car and move. But that was the extent of that. So that sounds fun. You just go walk around. One time we got some glow in the dark golf balls and went out on the golf course in the middle of the night. So there's the thrill. That sounds like a thrill. Yeah. It's more fun than daytime golf. I'll tell you that much. 

00:52:03 What else? Yeah, that's really. Yeah. Most of my memories from that town were sitting in the garden playing guitar and I did sports and drum line and that kind of stuff. More interesting. Okay. What'd you play? Marching band. Snare Drum? Hell yeah. I put a bass drum. Did you really face time was way too hard. You had to beat way cooperative with your line was not good at it when I tried playing bass, but yeah. Cool. Drum line. I did that for like a very short period of time and then realize it was all bullshit. 

00:52:41 Yeah, ours was pretty intense. What sports? I'm the only one I ended up doing the entire time with soccer. Nice. We had a. We were really, really bad. We were like the founding team, like year of the head, soccer, so nice. The town didn't really know what it was, but now they're really good. I guess I started to like, soccer was really. No, like our team was our first team ever was a boys team so I played on that team because that's all we had and we had like our starting lineup on our boys soccer team was like four girls. And how many more do you need? I don't remember. Like seven boys that hated football players, so that's what we had. Interesting. Closing our soccer team is fun. Nice. Yeah. I'm not really that good of an athlete. I just, I like exercising for just the clearing of your head aspect of it. That's pretty much it. Do you like team sports? The only one I ever did with soccer. I guess when I think about it, I tried golf and track which are not particularly the team sports. Yeah, I dunno. 

00:53:55 I have nothing interesting to say about sports. Very interesting. Came up. That's what I did in high school. Yeah. That was a whole nother aspect of like I lingered over how I could quit these sports that I hated because I thought my parents really wanted me to do it and I remember just thinking like they are going to be so upset and, but I had to give them 100 percent credit. That was me projecting it because when I finally did, they're like, uh, yeah, you can do whatever you want and that. Interesting. So in many ways that's what, they're very much do whatever you want. I just like had all these strict things that I imposed on myself. Really interesting. Huh? So I dunno. Yeah, I feel like the rest of this I like, it might've implied like my parents were very hard on me, but they actually were not. 

00:54:43 They were very laissez faire and many, many aspects. Like I ate ice cream for dinner for like eight years straight because they're like, they let you pick whatever, pick whatever you food you want as long as you eat enough food to stay alive. And so we just made our own choices within a certain ice cream for dinner for eight years. Yeah, pretty much because that's what I wanted. No, I had like health. I had like vegetables too, like I still ate healthy stuff, but also had a lot of freedom to stay alive however I saw fish. Yeah. That's amazing. So you're a pretty chill, like high school experience. Yeah, I can't say it was. I'm not damaged by anything that I know from my school. Eight years. Nice. What I'm hearing, everything that's going on in my mouth. I seriously am insulting everybody I've ever met in my life. Tell me some of the people you're installs. Dwayne. I instilled it. Anybody that ever lived in my town, um, anybody ever played music with, they're gonna be like, oh, she's talking about me. Like, no, I'm not. Okay. I'm not talking about you. There we go. Disclaimer. But I think that'll do it. Oh my gosh. Yeah. I don't know how you. 

00:56:28 So did you. Where'd you go first? I went to St Thomas. St Paul. Are you from a religious family? I was the religious one. You were the religious super religious. Your family, wasn't that religious religious? Are you still know Wu emphatic? No. 

00:56:50 Yeah, 

00:56:52 no it was at that I went to a religious school choice. Yeah. You're like, I want to go to a religious. No I wasn't, it wasn't like, that's not why I went there, but it ended up being there and I was like at the point like going to like for Bible studies a week and like really like playing all of worship bands and there was like a brick in high school or high school and college. And what drove you to that? Being religious and also like being involved in that way. Oh, oh, it was just because I'm like, oh Geez, how do you, how do you normally go in or what? Your question was how it brought me to be involved in worship pants. I'll just go with that level. So you, when you were little, did you. I'm like, did you always had this feeling of like, I don't know, belief in higher power or. Yeah, and I used, I'm assuming you would go to church when you were a little more regularly at church. Yeah, and I think I just got super religious because I like as

00:58:05 I'm pretty sure, well this is now, this is getting into whole another round, but like to deal with like depressive episodes in my childhood, I would go into like these, it's probably like obsessive compulsive. It's probably like a lot of different things, but I would like to add or elaborate like 40 minute long prayers and like that's what kept me alive. I don't know like Oh this is stuff I've never told anybody in the world that is really interesting. And so I think that's why I was, I was really, it was my coping mechanism for dealing with anything. That 40 minute prayer thing. Oh, it was just like, it was almost like if I just do this exact ritual saying all these things and asking for all this help, I'll get through this day and that would come up every few years. I'd go through a patch of when you're like holding him. 

00:58:51 I remember one was when I was like five. I notice now it's fine. I remember these very clear. They were very clear episodes. Which you, you poor thing five. I don't mind doing these long hair thing though because you were feeling so bad, but yeah, I guess so. Why were you feeling so bad? I mean, why does anybody it's unexplained? No, no, that's not the question. The question was why are you, why were you feeling so bad? No, I think it was just. I think probably if I would've gone to the doctor at those times it would, they would've got me some antidepressants, but gosh, when you were like super little. Yeah, I remember these things clearly. So it served a true and real purpose in my life to be religious when I was. And I'm thinking was helpful for me then. But

00:59:37 yeah. 

00:59:39 Can I ask you if you still get depressed? Like that

00:59:42 hasn't been. I mean, um, yes, 

00:59:46 but, 

00:59:47 but I have lots more coping mechanisms now and I, I know it hasn't been as bad. Yeah. Whew. Boy. Laying it all out there. 

01:00:01 It's good. I appreciate you talking about it. People don't talk about it enough, you know? Yeah, it's hard. 

01:00:09 It's so common. That's the thing, people feel like there's, but nobody is alone and oh my gosh, 

01:00:18 yes. So you, you started getting very religious when you were super little and then just kind of it kept going through like high school and stuff and you started like playing in like, um, like church bands and stuff. What would you play when you were like, what'd you play? Like you can tell her what you're saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or just like youth groups? Yes. 

01:00:49 Um, 

01:00:51 and you kept doing that kind of thing at St Thomas? 

01:00:54 Yep. Half of it. Did you like how, 

01:01:06 how was your relationship like with God? Like did you. 

01:01:15 Oh, it was very much constant conversation in my head, that kind of relationship. 

01:01:26 That's awesome. I don't know what that's like. 

01:01:31 Yeah, I don't, 

01:01:34 I only comes back to me like in moments in which is telling like extreme, like where I feel like I'm an extreme danger wherever I'm extremely nervous about something and all of a suddenly realize I'm saying God help me. God help me in my head. 

01:01:44 But other than that, it doesn't happen to me. I don't have that anymore. 

01:01:52 I mean, that seems like, I understand like it makes sense, like way you would like go to that when you're feeling so bad, but that seems like comforting to feel like there's somebody there. 

01:02:06 So

01:02:07 what, what changed? 

01:02:11 Um, 

01:02:12 that's another thing I really remember extremely clearly a

01:02:16 had

01:02:17 at that school. I had a religion class and I also had um, I was trying to be a, like a media person which I ended up doing, but I guess I had a visual if somebody in the Va digital arts. And so I had a visual communication class and an a new testament class at the same time. And just so happened that that's this week in the New Testament class we were focusing on parables of like the man born blind and then being cured and being able to see again after he was born blind. And then he was healed by Jesus and then went out and told 500 people. So we're focusing on that in one class. And then in my visual communication class we were talking about like the science of seeing and perceiving visual communication and blah blah, blah, blah. And then they actually, in that book talked about how like studies that were done on, like, people had cornea transplants or something that we're born blind. 

01:03:05 So it was like both these classes talking about this weirdly specific thing. And um, and then in the textbook they were like, well yeah, and we tried these, these transplants on people who are born blind and suddenly they could perceive like colors and shapes and they, most of them went crazy, like a lot of them committed suicide, like it was just too much. And so like I had like the scientific studies on people that were healed of their being born blind in tandem with this terrible. And I'm like, well this is all a parable. And then it was like a light switch in my head. I'm like, none of this is wow, this is all myth and beautiful parable. But it's not a real god talking to me in my head and shit. Like I dropped out of all these, the bands, I never really said anything. 

01:03:53 I just stopped going. And they're like. So, I mean, they asked after me and I never ever explicitly said any of this. Anybody. Wow. Hope like whole fast to that change. I mean, it seems like it's, it seems almost like a veil being lifted up. I was sitting, I can remember sitting in a cafeteria and I had this textbook open and reading it and like sitting up and be like, oh, that part is over. And I left that school and I didn't leave because of that. But I mean I ended up going a different path anyways. But yeah, that blows my mind. That totally blows mind. How long were you at Saint Thomas? Just two years. Three years. Just two years. Seems like. Yeah, I guess it was a long time. Why did you quit? Um, I mean, I, in those two years I had not solidified a major. 

01:04:41 And so my, I was in the songwriting class. I'm like, well maybe I'll do it. They were starting at popular music minor, so I took a songwriting class and I was sitting there and realized there's just a huge waste of time. And then I calculated how much it costs per minute to be sitting in that class and I'm like, what am I doing? Then I'm like, I'm not need to pay people to do this. And I like that week I decided to transfer you do the things I heard that I was, I was at the University of Minnesota for three semesters, so, and I was taking, I took a few like poetry classes and was just like, really, you know, it was taught by like um, what's the word? Like a when it's like a Grad student teaching the class. I can't remember the word for that. That's called either, but yeah, maybe adjunct or something. Um, but like Grad students and like they're fine people, they uh, you're a good pose. But I'm one of one of them especially just not a good teacher. And like

01:05:53 just. Yeah. So at some point I figured out like every time I go to this class it costs this much money. And just like how overwhelmingly ridiculous full that is. Like it's not, I'm not getting like this. The Co, like the cost compared to like the learning. And the like, it's just not, it's just not there. Exactly. Which is like I could take all that money and just like go live alone in a room and like learn more. Exactly. That's kind of what I felt like. Yeah, that's what true. And that's what's scary about in general, like that you need a college degree to do so many jobs and it's just stupid because a lot of that stuff you don't need to pay that much money to go do right in a room with people that are supposedly

01:06:52 better out of it than you. I don't know, that's a whole other topic, but school is fucked up. But yeah, that's so we can relate on that aspect. So you dropped out. Did you go, did you go back over or. No, I did. I transferred to, I just went back to the cheapest school closest to my town I could get to. So I moved back in from parents and Becker. Yep. Went to St. cloud state, which ended up being totally great choice. But at the time it felt like it was an implosion. Like I'm just like, I'm going to give up now and just do whatever I have to do continuous this path and. But it ended up being a good choice. And you and you did get a degree? Yeah. What'd you get? A degree in? Mass Communication. TV production. Nice. The easiest degree at the cheapest school is what I went with. 

01:07:45 Nice. Good. Cool. Yeah. Have you used it? Oh yeah, that's my field now that I have my day job is in TV or video production really. So yeah, it worked out. It all worked out. What kind of video production? Um, I, uh, this is embarrassing, but I work in a, a higher education institution. That sounds pretty cool. Yeah. Yeah. After I was just ripping on colleges, um, my college pays my paycheck, but yeah, so there's a whole nother level of stuff, but I love it because I get to learn a lot and into. I'm working a lot of different topics. What kind of like, what kind of work are you actually doing it? We do do emotion graphics. Oh Nice. Okay. And um, and shoot videos of like lectures or demonstrations and stuff like that for like we have like 300 different classes that we cover, so from pathology to calculus construction. So it's fun. Nice. Nice. Um, what, what software do you do? Motion graphics on A. I'm using after effects. So sweet. Yeah. Yeah. That adobe shit is fucking crazy. I was always more to learn. Yeah. Um, yeah, the whole like creative or like semi creative like desk job thing is like a blessing and a curse. Oh, absolutely. 

01:09:17 Yeah, that's a good way of putting it because I can never ever complain about it. Like I'm like, this is great. Super Fun. Like why would I, I would never have been done at the same time. You're like, well I don't really want to do another math tutorial here, but at the same time you're doing what you. Yeah. So it's a struggle. It's, I'm lucky

01:09:42 I worked at a TV station that was a terrible decision made crappy, like made like the car commercials were like we're the local guys dressed up like as a leprechaun and. But actually it's because you'd be like, make a rainbow shoot out of the trunk of this Green Mustang for and so that kind of stuff. But I mean it was embarrassing, like if anybody saw it, did you make that commercial and be like, yes, yes, I did go, like, oh, I'm like, they asked for that rainbow to shoot out of that car. Sorry. Yeah. Um, and how long have you been. Have you been living in? How long have you been living? So you, you move back to Becker to go to St. Cloud and then you moved back to Minneapolis where I went to Rochester to work at that TV station and I went back to Minneapolis. I work at a school for Awhile, thought I want to be a teacher, turns up a dome, then finally got the job at the college. Cool. Cool. How do you like Minneapolis? I love it. I really do almost everything about it. What do you like about it? I just like being in the midst of a lot of things going on. I think that's part of keeping away the,

01:10:57 those bad episodes. It's just like always having stuff going on around me, like being among a lot of the time. It was a lot for me. Totally. So that's the main thing and I just like, yeah, the parks and Blah Blah Blah. And in the, in the everything, all the events. Any Day of the week. 

01:11:14 Yeah. The fact that you can like, go to the cedar anytime, go into hard times. Anytime. Yeah. Yeah. Jealous. I have such mixed feelings about Minneapolis. I feel like a lot of people come here. Do a lot of people here through events. Yeah. In North Dakota. 

01:11:32 Yeah. Like people that I've met. Well basically people I've met at this festival. 

01:11:37 Really? That's super interesting. Why? Why? Uh, what kind of mixed feelings? 

01:11:42 I think a lot of, um, I mean I can't speak for them, but I get a sense from stories that I've heard some people have left and come to Minneapolis. Is that like an escape from things they don't want to be involved with here anymore or they've gone on some kind of. Yeah, like a shot into I'm never coming back and then end up going back and I don't know, I guess I just feel like some people will have like a, it's either like the best choice in my life to move me up as, or like I had a really hard time in Minneapolis and I'm never going back are the stories that I've gotten. Oh, interesting. 

01:12:21 I don't know. Yeah, I'm basically the ladder. I mean I love Minneapolis, but I think I have too much baggage. So like every lived there again. 

01:12:28 Totally Fair. Are you happy where you are now? Know what's your plan? 

01:12:34 Uh, well I'm working at a recording studio. Um, it's like some my family business and uh, I'm gonna do that for a couple of more years and then I'm going to go live in a van. Nice. I thought I got right now. That's great. I don't know if uh, I don't know if I can pull it off, but I'd like to. I think you could, I don't really want to like live in a place again, you know, you just want to move around before, uh, because we know time is scarce scene. I think that sums it up. Do you want to tell me a little bit about like, like songwriting and stuff? Are you sure? Sure. I guess so. Then what do you, what do you want to know? I want a, I want to know how you do it. Like do you, um, 

01:13:47 I can, 

01:13:48 do you, do you sit down and write a whole thing? Do you like write little bits and pieces of lyrics? Do you like, is there a melody that pops in here? Like how does this sound like start for you? How do you form it? Yeah. 

01:14:01 I found out from talking to other people, I feel like this is weird, but almost 90 percent of the time this, the words and the melody come at the exact same time for me and it'll come in like a big chunk. Like I don't usually sit down and like, I'm going to write a song. No, just it's like I'm okay, there's a song, it's in my head. I should read it down. Really? Yeah. How the fuck. So I can't take credit for anything because I have put no effort into it. Most of the time it just comes to me. I mean and there will be times where I'll be like, I'll have half of something will come halfway like that and I'm like well I should put a little effort into like how's this going to end? 

01:14:40 But other than that I feel like that that sort of writing style comes from just like practicing like fucking crazy forever to till it gets to the point where like, I mean I guess you feel this way. I definitely don't feel this way, but like there's something in your head that you can imagine that you can imagine and then you can do it. Like I'm hearing this thing in my head, now I can sing it and here's the accompaniment, I'm going to play on guitar or piano or whatever. I can't do that. Like in the slightest. 

01:15:18 So how do you do it? You get the like just totally separately. It really depends on what I'm writing

01:15:27 some. Yeah, I, I do a lot of things in, in small stages because I'm not good. 

01:15:36 Wow. Here we go. I don't think so. No, I didn't. I just, I think it's so awesome that there's so many different ways to do the same thing. Write a song totally. And there's no wrong way. It's beautiful, 

01:15:56 but like most of the time you'll hear something in your head and then pretty much fucking weekend. Is that ever frustrating? 

01:16:07 Um, 

01:16:10 I don't think so. Like I've never, I've always kind of kept music in a place where it's going to be. If it's frustrating, I don't do it. Like I pretty much it's been a purely nice, nice thing to me. So yeah, 

01:16:23 that's the um, that's the, uh, the Ringo Starr approach approach. Um, uh, I'm assuming you're a Beatles fan because I assume that everybody

01:16:36 that's probably not, let's go with it or not extremely well versed and don't, but I. Yeah, no, that's fine. I understand. That's fine. Their references, 

01:16:44 but like a, 

01:16:48 I think Ringo is one of the most amazing drummers for as far as like rock and roll goes, like and he like, uh, like two things. Like I remember hearing you're hearing him talk about like he doesn't, he wouldn't practice unless he was playing with people. Like he wouldn't like sit down and like I got to learn how to do this and he would just like, because like you thought it was boring and like why would he do that? Which is like, that seems like a really practical way to think about it. Like you know, it's something you're meant to do with other people, for her, a purpose of creating this thing. Right. So like that's how you would practice and then like he has like all of these, like iconic, like drum fills and stuff and um, a lot of them are just because like a, he is lefthanded oh yeah. 

01:17:39 So he can't play the same sort of stuff like that other drummers do and like be like if it just didn't feel right. If it was like frustrating or just like awkward in some way, he would just be like, I'm not going to do that. Maybe something that feels good. Yeah. Yeah. He's. Yeah. Yeah, totally. Yeah, I think that's probably a good, a good approach. Uh, I uh, I definitely go the other route of like frustrated in myself to know and then it's like, why am I even doing this? I have other things that can frustrate myself, but right aside. Yeah. Um, so music seems like something that's like super, super ingrained in you. Yeah. Since you've been, you know, you've been kind of obsessed with it since you were little. True. That is the truth

01:18:28 statement and I don't know how to elaborate on it. 

01:18:32 Well, I guess I'm wondering like, um, what, what has like spurred the whole, like, you know, you're making records, you're making recordings, you are like touring a little bit. I don't know how much tour and you've done, but I mean you're here, you know, like why, why are you doing all this? Oh my gosh, why am I doing it? I mean, is it just like, it's fun. So I do, yeah. 

01:19:02 That's okay. The only reason and yeah, it's yeah, it was fun. I want to do an intimate, pretty much my sole source of self expression. So anything I have to say or express interest in music. So

01:19:17 do you struggle to express yourself in other ways? 

01:19:22 I guess I just, it hasn't occurred to me to do that. In other words, as you can tell, by how awkwardly I am in a speaking situation. I don't think you're awkward. Yeah, just, it's just my default. Like I wouldn't think of trying to express something in a different way. Nice. I should take up like dance interpretive, dance every long limbs though. Like they would just be beneficial. You can say a lot with a swooping apelike arm. 

01:19:54 I'm feeling enough. You do video production, do you, do you take photographs and stuff? Do you do anything? 

01:20:03 Not really. I stick to most recent editing in the studio and the and the motion graphics. So like the video, it's like not, not a passion, just a job that you do. I do. I, I get really worked up if you want to talk about something that frustrates me, gets me worked up is like doing shoots. We're like, okay, I have an hour to get everything I need you to like I'm nothing frazzles me more than like live shoot or like onsite video shooting. So I think, I mean I have my own career that I would have made like artsy art docs with and I would like to do more of that. It's just so time consuming and stressful and I get very self conscious and people can see me like, oh, Logan and camera around. I like I'd rather do less conspicuous thing. Feels like a painting your nails grain or something. Oh Jeez. Yeah, I guess so. Oh Yeah Huh. Cool. Um, shit, what was I going to ask a what was I going to ask? Do you remember what were talking about? I don't know who you're talking about. Something with video. Video's not passionate. Something special. Uh, well, uh, interpretive dance. Oh, interpretive dance. Uh, you afraid of dying? Well, yeah. No actually you know, you, you, you made it, you clarified my fear. Scarcity of time, because I'm really not afraid of the actual death because I don't think it's gonna

01:21:43 change anything. What does that mean? Do you believe in? Do you have like, so you, you don't believe in God anymore or do you do not in the same sense that I did. Okay. Do you believe in an afterlife? 

01:21:57 I guess it, uh, and not in the same sense that I did before, but I mean in a sense that whatever energies in you goes to something else, it's kind of a nice thing in and of itself. So what, what happens to your, uh, consciousness? Who knows? I don't know. I don't know what I think about that anymore. It's a weird thing to not have an answer to that. When you grew up having a very solid answer to that, what would your answer have them? Oh, you go to heaven. That was another nice thing about my parents in the religiousness. Everybody goes to heaven. There's no hell that's sweet. So it should be, Huh? Uh, I'm terrified of the abyss. I'm drawn to the abyss. I mean like, uh, you know, consciousness flickering out who. Yeah, that's the way I feel like, uh, yeah, like I, you die and then that's it. I mean that's what I think is, that seems incredibly likely to me. You know, the lights turn out, you don't even know your dad. Why? Why is

01:23:06 that scary then? Because it's the end. I mean like I, uh, I on a really regular basis, like have a little panic attacks about it. I mean, the fact that like this is all coming to a grinding halt. Yeah. Yeah. And all of everything. It's just gone. 

01:23:32 Yeah. 

01:23:42 Do you remember when you were a kid or something in the first time you tried to comprehend nothingness, nothingness or infinity or like the fact that there was something before you and they'll be something after you that you won't know about? 

01:24:01 I remember being pretty young and I mean, yeah, realizing some of that stuff. I mean I remember when I started to realize like what I thought that's what would be a. do you? 

01:24:22 Yeah. I just remember like getting a thrill out of it. Like I would try to think of, I would try to get myself into that. Like what if there was nothing and I would sit there and like intentionally try to imagine nothing. Yeah. It would weird me out and I've talked to other people that had that experience too. And I wonder, it's just something we can't comprehend maybe. 

01:24:45 Yeah. And it's like just inevitable, like the universe is going to end eventually and then what? And then nothing. And then what is nothing cold rocks floating in space, you know? Yeah. Sometimes sometimes I think about you, one of the very early things you already you're talking about was like trying to kind of step out of your, your own mind and like look like at your life, like from a distance. Um, occasionally I will try to like, like the universe is huge, right? So there's probably life on other planets. Like there's probably intelligent life out there somewhere and I don't think, I don't think human civilization will ever make contact with like an intelligent alien species. But um, like there's, there's another world somewhere with like with people who are probably not that dissimilar from us, you know? And like they're out there doing stuff. 

01:26:04 Yeah. Yeah. Wondering if they're alone in the universe. I mean, isn't that like if you believe the universe is infinite, I mean that has to be true, which is freaky or not. Maybe it's not. I don't know enough about cosmology to really to really know that, but yeah, I do think our, I think on earth humanity will extinguish itself before we make contact with other planets, with people we could communicate with, sadly. Yeah. 

01:26:41 It could happen any day now. Gosh, you're exactly right. And on that note speaking, well, I mean, um, I could, I could keep talking to you for many hours. I'm, I'm quite enjoying this, but we can, we can wrap up anytime to, uh, is there, uh, is there anything that like that you want to talk about that we didn't talk about? What should I have asked that I didn't know had a great. We went all over the world we want to do. I really enjoyed this and I learned some valuable things. So this was enlightening to me. This is great. Like what? Just my actual fear is scarcity time. Yeah. That's beautiful. Terrifying. Yeah, totally. 

01:27:35 That's very strange. But one of the new songs I'm gonna sing tonight if I get brave enough is face down the limit. So your time and your gift face down, your fear of your finiteness or is it the chorus? So you have brought it all full circle for me. That's great. Nice. Yeah. Oh, um, are you, are you working on like any like new recordings that you're gonna put out? Are you planning any like touring how much, how much tour and have you done? Have you done any? Barely any of the one that brought me to mind that for the first time with the only in quotation to her that I've been on. So that's what brought me here. Would you tell me about your first might not experience because I've, I've heard bits and pieces of this. There were some thing about a Taco Bell, Taco Bell Line. 

01:28:32 Oh that's funny. Oh yeah. I just um, I had found out about Pangea House through reddit. It turned out to be coding what I would like quit on. Of course that was coding. I went under the North Dakota for the entire state sub reddit and, but like I'm playing a show, I need to get shows across North Dakota because I was going to Bozeman from Minneapolis to Bozeman for my tour and it turned out to be cody wrote back, we have this place in mind. I'm like, that is way out of my, my path dude. But then I looked it up and it looked cool and then I, so I drove out here in and nobody's there when I showed up and it was like deserted. It was like a Sunday night and I was like, oh, what have I gotten myself into? I don't know any real people. 

01:29:13 I didn't talk to any human beings about this, which is so many guy on Reddit said, show up at this time. And I got super freaked out and it turned out or he was late because they are in this like really long traffic jam at Taco Bell and Dah, Dah, Dah. And that was the whole reason like snopes staff were there at the time and I got scared. That's the short version, but that's pretty good. That's it. How was that show? It was almost like heartwarming thing. That's why I keep coming back here, like, yeah, it's beautiful people. Best people. Nice. Nice. Um, yeah, no. Are you working on a new recording? And just last night I was in studio and a place. Yeah. Where are you recording in Minneapolis? This song we did at creation, which is to look that up. Yeah, it's working with Tom Herbers as the engineer. He's great. He's like a most zen, calm person in the world. It makes sense. Really easy to record their. Yeah. So hopefully he can work on with him. 

01:30:18 Yeah. 

01:30:18 Uh, I'm just like you and a guitar, piano. That's what that was. We're hoping to get more people rounded up for the next few songs. Were kind of just taking it one song at a time, just building it slowly. Do you enjoy recording or. I'm getting better at not being terrified. So getting closer to enjoying it. 

01:30:46 Yeah. I like

01:30:49 just having a just in the whole goal is just to have something on my own terms that I'm proud of. So it's a simple goal in some ways. And in some ways very terrifying. So we're working with great people. I really respect. So it's going well. It's a, it's hard to, 

01:31:04 um, 

01:31:06 make stuff that you're proud of. Yeah, it is. Yeah. To, it takes, it takes a long time for the, uh, the, the image in your own head to like, meet the, the thing that's actually being creative, you know, it was like, like that gap. Yeah, that's a real thing. Yeah. And by the nature of continuing to grow, like anytime you look back on what you've already done, your, you have some kind of like, Huh. And then eventually get pass it far enough to be like, oh, that was cute that I go and I did that. And then you like, love it again in a weird way. Like you have to go over these humps of what's something that you feel that way? Everything I've ever recorded. Brilliant. That was cute guy that I was like, wow, that you tried, you, I not that. I mean, and

01:32:00 that's, I was proud of it at the time. And so that's ticket for what it was. I guess what now I would be like, please never ever played that again, but that's just the way it goes. It's good though. We grow and change and then hate our former, so yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Is there any ETA on that recording coming out? Oh, I got no ETA. Hopefully I actually can't even put out a project because I think they're just going to try to do. I'm trying to get 12 songs total, which might take 12 years, but sure. Asked me in 12 years. Twelve years. Okay. Thanks. Cool. Is there anything else that you want to touch on? No. Um, yeah. Hopefully anybody that hears this is, takes it for the good intentions that I had behind everything that I said. Not necessarily. I think you're gonna be falling. Okay. I'll just go with that. Then. Zooming out, zooming out, zooming, everything ends, everything ends. Die. Nothing matters. Just be happy with it. Yeah, exactly. Happy in its meaninglessness. Beautiful. I guess. Beautiful. Alright. Thank you for, for coming. Thanks for having me. You're never been better. Nice. Really. 

01:33:49 Family.